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America innovated rather than banned its way to the top in the last century

by xster 4y ago

mensetmanusman 4y ago
The west has learned how easy it is for China to take advantage of price arbitrage. This is especially true when they block access to their market for the thing being competed. For example, some of my colleagues used to work at US solar companies before they all collapsed due to the market being flooded by below cost Chinese panels. If a country‘s government is willing to back technology below cost (or by blocking their market only for competitors), that is an appropriate place for tariffs or banning.
- zardo 4y ago
  I don't get the idea that China subsidizing solar panel manufacturing is bad. Rather, the U.S. failure to do so is bad.
  - rmbyrro 4y ago
    Government subsidies almost always leads to inefficient capital and labor allocations, which create waste.
    - zardo 4y ago
      Almost is doing a lot of work there
    - TrapLord_Rhodo 4y ago
      >inefficient capital and labor allocations, which create waste. You can thank this 'inefficient capital' to almost all modern innovations. In reality, the US System has evolved to be no different than China, only slightly more people have their hand in the pot in the US. We also heavily subsidize electric energy production, manufacturing and all other manners of industry. We just don't allow sweat shops in manufacturing anymore, only tech.
  - PKop 4y ago
    Agree. And this is similar to policy US itself took (and many other rising economic powers) in the early 1800's [0] "The American System was an economic plan that played an important role in American policy during the first half of the 19th century. Rooted in the "American School" ideas of Alexander Hamilton, the plan "consisted of three mutually reinforcing parts: a tariff to protect and promote American industry; a national bank to foster commerce; and federal subsidies for roads, canals, and other 'internal improvements' to develop profitable markets for agriculture". The establishment of a protective tariff, a 20%–25% tax on imported goods, would protect a nation's business from foreign competition. Congress passed a tariff in 1816 which made European goods more expensive and encouraged consumers to buy relatively cheap American-made goods." [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_System_(economic_plan) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_System_(economic_plan...
  - mensetmanusman 4y ago
    The unelected Chinese government created a system wherein the Chinese taxpayers were (unknowingly) subsidizing panel production so that Chinese companies could sell their panels in other markets below the cost of materials. This prevents competition from forming… yes the US government should do more, but it is slower in a democracy to respond…
    - xster 4y ago
      To be fair, most US competitive products in the private sector arose from the public sector taking most of the risk away in publicly funded research from consumer electronics or aerospace to pharmaceutics. The internet and agent orange came from project AGILE in ARPA. How much electing did you partake in either?
    - zardo 4y ago
      The US is slow to respond because it's an oligarchy with a powerful interests in prolonging the fossil fuel age.
      - mensetmanusman 4y ago
        That’s one small reason, another is that in a democracy orders of magnitude more people have a voice so everything is slower.
        zardo 4y ago
        What democracy? Popular opinion has an effect indistinguishable from random chance on US policy. When the ruling class interests align, the US acts swiftly.
        mensetmanusman 4y ago
        The democracy where there is voting…
PKop 4y ago
Globalization and free-trade were beneficial when US was unipolar hegemon (though arguably not being protectionist against China enabled China's rise)... but in earlier periods of America's primary growth, "bans" of foreign good through protectionism favoring domestic industries is what made America strong.[0] Innovation is not antithetical to taking heavy-handed policy targeting adversaries, whether through trade or monetary/financial policy. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_System_(economic_plan) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_System_(economic_plan...
vasco 4y ago
Have you heard of TRIPS and how that was negotiated and led by the US? Might change your mind
lalaland1125 4y ago
Exactly. There is nothing magical about a digital yuan. It's just a bank with a nice API. The only reason why it's popular is because our traditional banking system is so anti innovation and refuses to offer decent APIs.

America innovated rather than banned its way to the top in the last century

by xster 4y ago

America innovated rather than banned its way to the top in the last century

The west has learned how easy it is for China to take advantage of price arbitrage. This is especially true when they block access to their market for the thing being competed. For example, some of my colleagues used to work at US solar companies before they all collapsed due to the market being flooded by below cost Chinese panels. If a country‘s government is willing to back technology below cost (or by blocking their market only for competitors), that is an appropriate place for tariffs or banning.

zardo 4y ago
I don't get the idea that China subsidizing solar panel manufacturing is bad. Rather, the U.S. failure to do so is bad.
- rmbyrro 4y ago
  Government subsidies almost always leads to inefficient capital and labor allocations, which create waste.
  - zardo 4y ago
    Almost is doing a lot of work there
  - TrapLord_Rhodo 4y ago
    >inefficient capital and labor allocations, which create waste. You can thank this 'inefficient capital' to almost all modern innovations. In reality, the US System has evolved to be no different than China, only slightly more people have their hand in the pot in the US. We also heavily subsidize electric energy production, manufacturing and all other manners of industry. We just don't allow sweat shops in manufacturing anymore, only tech.
- PKop 4y ago
  Agree. And this is similar to policy US itself took (and many other rising economic powers) in the early 1800's [0] "The American System was an economic plan that played an important role in American policy during the first half of the 19th century. Rooted in the "American School" ideas of Alexander Hamilton, the plan "consisted of three mutually reinforcing parts: a tariff to protect and promote American industry; a national bank to foster commerce; and federal subsidies for roads, canals, and other 'internal improvements' to develop profitable markets for agriculture". The establishment of a protective tariff, a 20%–25% tax on imported goods, would protect a nation's business from foreign competition. Congress passed a tariff in 1816 which made European goods more expensive and encouraged consumers to buy relatively cheap American-made goods." [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_System_(economic_plan) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_System_(economic_plan...
- mensetmanusman 4y ago
  The unelected Chinese government created a system wherein the Chinese taxpayers were (unknowingly) subsidizing panel production so that Chinese companies could sell their panels in other markets below the cost of materials. This prevents competition from forming… yes the US government should do more, but it is slower in a democracy to respond…
  - xster 4y ago
    To be fair, most US competitive products in the private sector arose from the public sector taking most of the risk away in publicly funded research from consumer electronics or aerospace to pharmaceutics. The internet and agent orange came from project AGILE in ARPA. How much electing did you partake in either?
  - zardo 4y ago
    The US is slow to respond because it's an oligarchy with a powerful interests in prolonging the fossil fuel age.
    - mensetmanusman 4y ago
      That’s one small reason, another is that in a democracy orders of magnitude more people have a voice so everything is slower.
      - zardo 4y ago
        What democracy? Popular opinion has an effect indistinguishable from random chance on US policy. When the ruling class interests align, the US acts swiftly.
        mensetmanusman 4y ago
        The democracy where there is voting…

PKop 4y ago

Globalization and free-trade were beneficial when US was unipolar hegemon (though arguably not being protectionist against China enabled China's rise)... but in earlier periods of America's primary growth, "bans" of foreign good through protectionism favoring domestic industries is what made America strong.[0] Innovation is not antithetical to taking heavy-handed policy targeting adversaries, whether through trade or monetary/financial policy. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_System_(economic_plan) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_System_(economic_plan...

vasco 4y ago

Have you heard of TRIPS and how that was negotiated and led by the US? Might change your mind

lalaland1125 4y ago

Exactly. There is nothing magical about a digital yuan. It's just a bank with a nice API. The only reason why it's popular is because our traditional banking system is so anti innovation and refuses to offer decent APIs.