5 ms·

This doesn't help my intuition at all.

by jwilk 4y ago

quesera 4y ago
This is how I think about it: * Your first choice had a natural chance of 1% to be correct. * After eliminating the 98 other options, a random choice of the remaining two is 50% likely to be correct. * BUT, you know that the reason the door you picked was not opened is because you picked it! Its inclusion in the set-of-two is not random. * So your first choice is isn't any more likely to be correct that it was when you first you chose it.
- patrickdavey 4y ago
  The way I think about it (which I hope is correct): when you first chose your probability of guessing correctly was 1 in 100. It doesn't magically become 1 in 2 when the other 98 doors are opened.
  - lijogdfljk 4y ago
    Funny, i think (but am not arguing i'm correct) it does change probability when the doors change. As i explained[1] in the sister post. Perhaps this is some mathematical concept? To me i'm viewing every choice as a dice roll. I have no question that the first dice roll was worse than the 2nd. However to me the 2nd is a die with two faces. Two choices, of which both are equally possible. To look at it differently. The doors changing probability to me sounds like.. imagine two people, the PersonA has this primary scenario. They had 100 doors, chose one, and are then asked if they'd like to switch. PersonB then is asked the second question, of the 2 doors, which do they want? PersonA and B are standing next to each other. The doors are the same for both of them. Why would PersonA have different odds than PersonB? And how could PersonB's odds be any different than 50/50 with no prior history of the doors? Is there some fundamental difference between the grand idea of probability and "reality" as i'm trying to describe it here? [1]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31535557 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31535557
    - thethirdone 4y ago
      > Funny, i think (but am not arguing i'm correct) it does change probability when the doors change. As i explained[1] in the sister post. The probability that you have the winning door does not change when the 98 doors are opened. The simple reason for this is that it is always possible to open 98 doors without the prize regardless of which door you initially chose. So it provides no extra information about your chosen door. But it does provide information about the single remaining door because in most situations, that specific door would need to have been opened. > To look at it differently. The doors changing probability to me sounds like.. imagine two people, the PersonA has this primary scenario. They had 100 doors, chose one, and are then asked if they'd like to switch. PersonB then is asked the second question, of the 2 doors, which do they want? PersonA and B are standing next to each other. The doors are the same for both of them. Why would PersonA have different odds than PersonB? And how could PersonB's odds be any different than 50/50 with no prior history of the doors? If PersonB saw everything happen, they have all the information PersonA has and therefore can make the same choice (99% correctly). If PersonB came in after the door was chosen and the 98 doors were opened, (assuming they can't tell which door PersonA chose) their chance of picking the winning door is indeed 50%. When thinking about probabilities, it is very important to think about the information that each person knows. The game master knows everything, so if they were playing their own game, they could win 100% of the time. PersonA can only win 99%. And PersonB can only win 50%. It all depends on what information you are given.
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
    - ipaddr 4y ago
      You pick a room 1/3 = %33 The other two rooms = %66 After host opens one of the rooms The odds are still 33% vs 66%
- lijogdfljk 4y ago
  Man, i still don't get it. Well, maybe i do? :shrug: The way i see it, the other door has a higher chance of being correct than the door you originally chose. However the two are fundamentally different, are they not? In reality both doors are equally likely to be correct, no? So yes, changing would be better compared to your original answer - but "to change or not" evaluates both doors in my mind, and each is a 50% chance, no? Which i think is what you're saying here: > So your first choice is isn't any more likely to be correct that it was when you first you chose it. But nevertheless the problem has me a bit confused in what is expected to be "right". It seems to me there is no right, it is a 50/50, unless you are strictly answering the moot point of "Which is better? The door you first chose, or the potential other door?". Ie i guess i view the original choice as irrelevant the moment the variables change. I feel i misunderstand the goal of the "problem".
  - pessimizer 4y ago
    > In reality both doors are equally likely to be correct, no? No, your original pick will always have a 1/3 chance of being correct. The door that gets opened will always have a 0/3 chance of being correct. The last door has to get all of the rest of the chance. ----- edit: I haven't tried explaining it this way before, but instead of one winning door and two bad doors, there's one door with a brand new car, one door with a giant mousetrap, and one door with a stuffed toy dinosaur. These are the ways it can go. A) You pick the door with the car. Monty either picks the dinosaur or the mousetrap, he doesn't really care. If you switch, you get the dinosaur or the mousetrap. B) You pick the door with the dinosaur. Monty is forced to pick the mousetrap. If you switch, you win the car. C) You pick the door with the mousetrap. Monty is forced to pick the dinosaur. If you switch, you win the car. ----- edit 2: your intuition is actually comparing this problem to other problems and not seeing the difference. Take the above scenario for example, but change it so Monty always reveals the dinosaur, no matter what. A) You pick the door with the car. Monty picks the dinosaur. If you switch, you get the mousetrap. B) You pick the door with the dinosaur. Monty picks the same door, and shows you that it is the dinosaur. Now you will definitely switch, and have an even chance to win the mousetrap or the car. C) You pick the door with the mousetrap. Monty picks the door with the dinosaur. If you switch, you will win the car. That's your 50/50.
derriz 4y ago
You're actually being given the choice between "my initial pick contains the prize" or "the prize is contained in any of the other 99 boxes". Okay - the host does a routine to add to the "drama" by revealing 98 non-prize boxes but since he will never reveal the prize during this process, he isn't giving you any more information.
- lupire 4y ago
  Well, he's giving you 98 pieces of information if your second choice is "pick a door", not "pick all the other doors"
  - derriz 4y ago
    Imagine you were given the choice before he opens any boxes. “Stick with your pick“ or “Switch to picking all 99 of the others”. Opening non-prize boxes before showing the contents of the last box is just part of the reveal drama - whether you’ve chosen 1 or 99 boxes.
- naniwaduni 4y ago
  It's actually sufficient that he simply hasn't revealed the prize in the other 98 picks. Of course, it would make for poor drama if he just happened to open the prize in the process, but you can imagine a construction where he's picking 98/99 of the other boxes out of lotto machine and offers you the chance to switch if, at the end of the process, none of the doors he opened contained the prize. It'll just be a pretty silly show the 98% of the time that the host just opens the prize in the middle of the drawing.

This doesn't help my intuition at all.

by jwilk 4y ago

This doesn't help my intuition at all.

This is how I think about it: * Your first choice had a natural chance of 1% to be correct. * After eliminating the 98 other options, a random choice of the remaining two is 50% likely to be correct. * BUT, you know that the reason the door you picked was not opened is because you picked it! Its inclusion in the set-of-two is not random. * So your first choice is isn't any more likely to be correct that it was when you first you chose it.

patrickdavey 4y ago
The way I think about it (which I hope is correct): when you first chose your probability of guessing correctly was 1 in 100. It doesn't magically become 1 in 2 when the other 98 doors are opened.
- lijogdfljk 4y ago
  Funny, i think (but am not arguing i'm correct) it does change probability when the doors change. As i explained[1] in the sister post. Perhaps this is some mathematical concept? To me i'm viewing every choice as a dice roll. I have no question that the first dice roll was worse than the 2nd. However to me the 2nd is a die with two faces. Two choices, of which both are equally possible. To look at it differently. The doors changing probability to me sounds like.. imagine two people, the PersonA has this primary scenario. They had 100 doors, chose one, and are then asked if they'd like to switch. PersonB then is asked the second question, of the 2 doors, which do they want? PersonA and B are standing next to each other. The doors are the same for both of them. Why would PersonA have different odds than PersonB? And how could PersonB's odds be any different than 50/50 with no prior history of the doors? Is there some fundamental difference between the grand idea of probability and "reality" as i'm trying to describe it here? [1]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31535557 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31535557
  - thethirdone 4y ago
    > Funny, i think (but am not arguing i'm correct) it does change probability when the doors change. As i explained[1] in the sister post. The probability that you have the winning door does not change when the 98 doors are opened. The simple reason for this is that it is always possible to open 98 doors without the prize regardless of which door you initially chose. So it provides no extra information about your chosen door. But it does provide information about the single remaining door because in most situations, that specific door would need to have been opened. > To look at it differently. The doors changing probability to me sounds like.. imagine two people, the PersonA has this primary scenario. They had 100 doors, chose one, and are then asked if they'd like to switch. PersonB then is asked the second question, of the 2 doors, which do they want? PersonA and B are standing next to each other. The doors are the same for both of them. Why would PersonA have different odds than PersonB? And how could PersonB's odds be any different than 50/50 with no prior history of the doors? If PersonB saw everything happen, they have all the information PersonA has and therefore can make the same choice (99% correctly). If PersonB came in after the door was chosen and the 98 doors were opened, (assuming they can't tell which door PersonA chose) their chance of picking the winning door is indeed 50%. When thinking about probabilities, it is very important to think about the information that each person knows. The game master knows everything, so if they were playing their own game, they could win 100% of the time. PersonA can only win 99%. And PersonB can only win 50%. It all depends on what information you are given.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - ipaddr 4y ago
    You pick a room 1/3 = %33 The other two rooms = %66 After host opens one of the rooms The odds are still 33% vs 66%
lijogdfljk 4y ago
Man, i still don't get it. Well, maybe i do? :shrug: The way i see it, the other door has a higher chance of being correct than the door you originally chose. However the two are fundamentally different, are they not? In reality both doors are equally likely to be correct, no? So yes, changing would be better compared to your original answer - but "to change or not" evaluates both doors in my mind, and each is a 50% chance, no? Which i think is what you're saying here: > So your first choice is isn't any more likely to be correct that it was when you first you chose it. But nevertheless the problem has me a bit confused in what is expected to be "right". It seems to me there is no right, it is a 50/50, unless you are strictly answering the moot point of "Which is better? The door you first chose, or the potential other door?". Ie i guess i view the original choice as irrelevant the moment the variables change. I feel i misunderstand the goal of the "problem".
- pessimizer 4y ago
  > In reality both doors are equally likely to be correct, no? No, your original pick will always have a 1/3 chance of being correct. The door that gets opened will always have a 0/3 chance of being correct. The last door has to get all of the rest of the chance. ----- edit: I haven't tried explaining it this way before, but instead of one winning door and two bad doors, there's one door with a brand new car, one door with a giant mousetrap, and one door with a stuffed toy dinosaur. These are the ways it can go. A) You pick the door with the car. Monty either picks the dinosaur or the mousetrap, he doesn't really care. If you switch, you get the dinosaur or the mousetrap. B) You pick the door with the dinosaur. Monty is forced to pick the mousetrap. If you switch, you win the car. C) You pick the door with the mousetrap. Monty is forced to pick the dinosaur. If you switch, you win the car. ----- edit 2: your intuition is actually comparing this problem to other problems and not seeing the difference. Take the above scenario for example, but change it so Monty always reveals the dinosaur, no matter what. A) You pick the door with the car. Monty picks the dinosaur. If you switch, you get the mousetrap. B) You pick the door with the dinosaur. Monty picks the same door, and shows you that it is the dinosaur. Now you will definitely switch, and have an even chance to win the mousetrap or the car. C) You pick the door with the mousetrap. Monty picks the door with the dinosaur. If you switch, you will win the car. That's your 50/50.

derriz 4y ago

You're actually being given the choice between "my initial pick contains the prize" or "the prize is contained in any of the other 99 boxes". Okay - the host does a routine to add to the "drama" by revealing 98 non-prize boxes but since he will never reveal the prize during this process, he isn't giving you any more information.

lupire 4y ago
Well, he's giving you 98 pieces of information if your second choice is "pick a door", not "pick all the other doors"
- derriz 4y ago
  Imagine you were given the choice before he opens any boxes. “Stick with your pick“ or “Switch to picking all 99 of the others”. Opening non-prize boxes before showing the contents of the last box is just part of the reveal drama - whether you’ve chosen 1 or 99 boxes.
naniwaduni 4y ago
It's actually sufficient that he simply hasn't revealed the prize in the other 98 picks. Of course, it would make for poor drama if he just happened to open the prize in the process, but you can imagine a construction where he's picking 98/99 of the other boxes out of lotto machine and offers you the chance to switch if, at the end of the process, none of the doors he opened contained the prize. It'll just be a pretty silly show the 98% of the time that the host just opens the prize in the middle of the drawing.