7 ms·

I was pretty excited about Guix because I find Guile more fun and less academic than Haskell (which Nix uses). Then I stumbled upon some of the extremist propag

I was pretty excited about Guix because I find Guile more fun and less academic than Haskell (which Nix uses). Then I stumbled upon some of the extremist propaganda by one of the main Guile developers and promptly decided that it isn't for me.

ElevenLathe 4y ago
Do you mean extremist in some general sense or just the usual hardline FSF free software stance?
- orangetuba 4y ago
  I have nothing against the hardline stance the FSF holds, but I cannot support someone who joins an organization and then starts a crusade against its founder over his personal political views. I don't think politics belongs in open source software.
  - ParetoOptimal 4y ago
    > I don't think politics belongs in open source software. Politics will always be there, even if they aren't talked about.
NoThisIsMe 4y ago
Could you elaborate please?
mistrial9 4y ago
FUD much? really, show links or go away Please!
- orangebeet 4y ago
  You can read about it on his blood red marxist blog, twitter etc: https://wingolog.org/archives/2021/03/25/here-we-go-again https://wingolog.org/archives/2021/03/25/here-we-go-again http://wingolog.org/archives/2019/10/08/thoughts-on-rms-and-gnu http://wingolog.org/archives/2019/10/08/thoughts-on-rms-and-... https://twitter.com/andywingo/status/1215946242225790983 https://twitter.com/andywingo/status/1215946242225790983
  - 3836293648 4y ago
    Rightfully criticising RMS for his objectively horrible behaviour is extremist propaganda now?
    - orangetuba 4y ago
      Objective according to you? https://rms-support-letter.github.io/ https://rms-support-letter.github.io/
  - mistrial9 4y ago
    honestly, thank you for the links. I believe that evidence-based discussion on social topics is useful, and you have contributed to that. regarding "bloody marxist" or whatever.. I like the a-political, personal emphasis of GNU .. that means, I can sit next to a Real Bloody Marxist, and drink coffee and debug $lspci output.. seriously, I am OK with that, it supports a worldview of 'tolerance'.. similarly for people with serious depression, people who have had trouble with food addictions, people who SMOKE TOBACCO ! all of that.. its part of a "plural society" which I personally support everyday. back to lspci output here
    - cowtools 4y ago
      Even as a moderate-libertarian myself, it is not really surprising that a lot of free-software users and contributors are communists. RMS himself seems to be pretty left-leaning. It is encouraging that most free-software users/contributors can see past political squabbles and work on tech that improves society more objectively.
      - ParetoOptimal 4y ago
        > most free-software users/contributors can see past political squabbles and work on tech that improves society more objectively. The problem is apolitical can easily be or become amoral, so I can't agree this is a virtue without further clarification. Some differents can and should be tolerated, but in the spirit of the paradox of tolerance others should not. How would you feel if you released software under an MIT license that helped a neo-Nazi resurgence for instance?
rottingchris 4y ago
Nix doesn't use Haskell. Nix uses its own language (the Nix expression language): https://nixos.wiki/wiki/Nix_Expression_Language https://nixos.wiki/wiki/Nix_Expression_Language
- smitty1e 4y ago
  I can't figure out from Wikipedia if NixOS is a systemd user or, like Guix, has a custom services facility.
  - opan 4y ago
    NixOS uses systemd.
  - jbboehr 4y ago
    NixOS uses systemd, although wrapped in their own DSL, example: https://github.com/NixOS/nixpkgs/blob/24903b5de2e07cc7b65eae8c850d6204981953de/nixos/modules/services/databases/cockroachdb.nix#L197-L222 https://github.com/NixOS/nixpkgs/blob/24903b5de2e07cc7b65eae...
  - yjftsjthsd-h 4y ago
    It currently uses systemd quite heavily. There at least was some conversation about making it more service manager agnostic so that others could be used, but I'm not aware of that having gotten anywhere. I haven't checked in a while though.
branon 4y ago
I'm interested in an academic sense, what's the accusation here? Regardless of the person's views though I think if their code is clean and they're not actively applying said views to harm other contributors, live and let live...
- orangetuba 4y ago
  Agreed. Actively trying to harm other contributors (Richard Stallman) is the problem here.
  - acdw 4y ago
    genuinely curious here: when was the last time rms contributed anything other than bad takes or toxic behavior to the fsf?
    - orangetuba 4y ago
      I don't have a clear overview of the exact timeline, but at some point he created the FSF, the original GCC, Emacs, GDB, GNU Make, parts of the GNU userspace tools, the predecessor to Wikipedia, the copyleft concept and the GPL license among other things. How does it compare to your contributions?
      - kaba0 4y ago
        Emacs was not originally created by him though, but Guy Steele and David Moon.
      - maleldil 4y ago
        RMS can be an amazing engineer that helped shape the tech world as we know it today, and still be a horrible human being.
        mongol 4y ago
        I am quite sure he is not a horrible human being. I reserve that word for people like Putin.

ElevenLathe 4y ago

Do you mean extremist in some general sense or just the usual hardline FSF free software stance?

orangetuba 4y ago
I have nothing against the hardline stance the FSF holds, but I cannot support someone who joins an organization and then starts a crusade against its founder over his personal political views. I don't think politics belongs in open source software.
- ParetoOptimal 4y ago
  > I don't think politics belongs in open source software. Politics will always be there, even if they aren't talked about.

NoThisIsMe 4y ago

Could you elaborate please?

mistrial9 4y ago

FUD much? really, show links or go away Please!

orangebeet 4y ago
You can read about it on his blood red marxist blog, twitter etc: https://wingolog.org/archives/2021/03/25/here-we-go-again https://wingolog.org/archives/2021/03/25/here-we-go-again http://wingolog.org/archives/2019/10/08/thoughts-on-rms-and-gnu http://wingolog.org/archives/2019/10/08/thoughts-on-rms-and-... https://twitter.com/andywingo/status/1215946242225790983 https://twitter.com/andywingo/status/1215946242225790983
- 3836293648 4y ago
  Rightfully criticising RMS for his objectively horrible behaviour is extremist propaganda now?
  - orangetuba 4y ago
    Objective according to you? https://rms-support-letter.github.io/ https://rms-support-letter.github.io/
- mistrial9 4y ago
  honestly, thank you for the links. I believe that evidence-based discussion on social topics is useful, and you have contributed to that. regarding "bloody marxist" or whatever.. I like the a-political, personal emphasis of GNU .. that means, I can sit next to a Real Bloody Marxist, and drink coffee and debug $lspci output.. seriously, I am OK with that, it supports a worldview of 'tolerance'.. similarly for people with serious depression, people who have had trouble with food addictions, people who SMOKE TOBACCO ! all of that.. its part of a "plural society" which I personally support everyday. back to lspci output here
  - cowtools 4y ago
    Even as a moderate-libertarian myself, it is not really surprising that a lot of free-software users and contributors are communists. RMS himself seems to be pretty left-leaning. It is encouraging that most free-software users/contributors can see past political squabbles and work on tech that improves society more objectively.
    - ParetoOptimal 4y ago
      > most free-software users/contributors can see past political squabbles and work on tech that improves society more objectively. The problem is apolitical can easily be or become amoral, so I can't agree this is a virtue without further clarification. Some differents can and should be tolerated, but in the spirit of the paradox of tolerance others should not. How would you feel if you released software under an MIT license that helped a neo-Nazi resurgence for instance?

rottingchris 4y ago

Nix doesn't use Haskell. Nix uses its own language (the Nix expression language): https://nixos.wiki/wiki/Nix_Expression_Language https://nixos.wiki/wiki/Nix_Expression_Language

smitty1e 4y ago
I can't figure out from Wikipedia if NixOS is a systemd user or, like Guix, has a custom services facility.
- opan 4y ago
  NixOS uses systemd.
- jbboehr 4y ago
  NixOS uses systemd, although wrapped in their own DSL, example: https://github.com/NixOS/nixpkgs/blob/24903b5de2e07cc7b65eae8c850d6204981953de/nixos/modules/services/databases/cockroachdb.nix#L197-L222 https://github.com/NixOS/nixpkgs/blob/24903b5de2e07cc7b65eae...
- yjftsjthsd-h 4y ago
  It currently uses systemd quite heavily. There at least was some conversation about making it more service manager agnostic so that others could be used, but I'm not aware of that having gotten anywhere. I haven't checked in a while though.

branon 4y ago

I'm interested in an academic sense, what's the accusation here? Regardless of the person's views though I think if their code is clean and they're not actively applying said views to harm other contributors, live and let live...

orangetuba 4y ago
Agreed. Actively trying to harm other contributors (Richard Stallman) is the problem here.
- acdw 4y ago
  genuinely curious here: when was the last time rms contributed anything other than bad takes or toxic behavior to the fsf?
  - orangetuba 4y ago
    I don't have a clear overview of the exact timeline, but at some point he created the FSF, the original GCC, Emacs, GDB, GNU Make, parts of the GNU userspace tools, the predecessor to Wikipedia, the copyleft concept and the GPL license among other things. How does it compare to your contributions?
    - kaba0 4y ago
      Emacs was not originally created by him though, but Guy Steele and David Moon.
    - maleldil 4y ago
      RMS can be an amazing engineer that helped shape the tech world as we know it today, and still be a horrible human being.
      - mongol 4y ago
        I am quite sure he is not a horrible human being. I reserve that word for people like Putin.