4 ms·

As I've previously said, some people will hate this format. If you're one of them, just click on a node to read the tweets via the Twitter interface.

shabble 4y ago
Hadn't seen it before, and my first thought was "wow, that's a lot nicer than trying to read via twitter" Have you considered a HN/generic forum display output format? :)
- ColinWright 4y ago
  I'm working on all sorts of things, but am hampered by the facts that I have (a) no skillz, (b) no time, and (c) no money. But I have a version of this to visualise Mastodon discussion, HN discussions, and I have a tool that lets you have discussions directly in the graph format, including being able to tie threads together to help people come to conclusions. So, sort of. It's all a long way off being usable, though.
  - lupire 4y ago
    Isn't printing newlines and tabs easier than graphviz?
    - ColinWright 4y ago
      I guess I don't understand what's being suggested, because this comment makes no sense to me. I have a large and complex DiGraph ... are you suggesting there's a simple way of laying it out using plain text? Here's an example of another chart produced by my system: https://www.solipsys.co.uk/Chartter/ReadingHeyer_20220429.svg https://www.solipsys.co.uk/Chartter/ReadingHeyer_20220429.sv... How would you produce that with newlines and tabs? If you're suggesting the usual linear/indented version that existing social media systems use, that's exactly what I'm trying to get away from, so I can properly visualise the entire tree, seeing descendants as descendants, and not as a comment a long way down the page. Maybe I'm just not understanding what you're suggesting.
ulnarkressty 4y ago
https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1529994566115348485.html https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1529994566115348485.html
- ColinWright 4y ago
  Great if all you want to read is the initial thread, but if you're interested in any of the discussion, that doesn't really help.
  - meragrin_ 4y ago
    What good is the discussion if you don't fully read the initial thread? That graph makes it really difficult to do.
    - ColinWright 4y ago
      You can read the initial thread just by opening the chart and scrolling down ... the initial thread is there down the left side. But, you know, whatever works for you.
      - Noumenon72 4y ago
        Just reporting my experience like a focus group user: I opened the chart and thought "I am supposed to look at the thing on the screen". It was a reply out of context so it didn't make sense. I didn't consider clicking through because there is not an affordability of clicking like an arrow or a URL. I didn't scroll around because the thing I saw didn't grab my interest. I saw your other post and scrolled down to the top tweet on the left. I looked to the immediate right for the self-reply to the top tweet. It wasn't there, so I gave up. I didn't notice the lines heading off-screen and I didn't expect them there. My mental model was a tree with a single top-level element.
        ColinWright 4y ago
        I've experimented in the past with putting a node at the top left to say to people "Scroll down", or "Scroll right", depending on which layout I've used, but folks giving usability feedback who are experienced with it say that it's annoying and irritating constantly to be told something they know. So it's the usual problem of helping the novices versus annoying the experienced. Given that there's no login or other persistence I'm pretty sure I can't solve that. I'll probably put the top-left node back in. Thanks for the feedback.
devonbleak 4y ago
Interesting concept and I think there's a great idea here buried behind some usability issues. Having an option to go top down might help, as would ability to collapse branches and maybe zoom out/in to get a broader overview and then focus on certain areas. In the left-to-right view I had to scroll down to get to the root of the tree and I was confused what I was looking at until I saw that - ensuring that the root node is always visible on load would probably help a lot. Seems like something D3 might be good at, making it more interactive instead of static svg?
- ColinWright 4y ago
  I've deliberately put the original thread running down the left with the discussions going off to the right, because that seems to be more usable for most people. Other options exist, I can just have it run as an ordinary tree from the top, but it's harder to find the "one true thread". I've used other more dynamic layout systems, but they tend to wobble about and give me motion sickness, or not do as well with the layout. There's a lot going on here. Yes, foldability, forcing layout, allowing people to move things around, I've tried all of these to the best of my ability, and other people have had a go, then given up and gone away. To do a decent job will require skill and time, neither of which I have. I am, as you might be able to tell, frustrated with this. I know very much how Ted Nelson feels. I have a vision, and I have neither the skillz to implement it, nor the ability to communicate it clearly to others. Yes, there are many things that can be done here.

shabble 4y ago

Hadn't seen it before, and my first thought was "wow, that's a lot nicer than trying to read via twitter" Have you considered a HN/generic forum display output format? :)

ColinWright 4y ago
I'm working on all sorts of things, but am hampered by the facts that I have (a) no skillz, (b) no time, and (c) no money. But I have a version of this to visualise Mastodon discussion, HN discussions, and I have a tool that lets you have discussions directly in the graph format, including being able to tie threads together to help people come to conclusions. So, sort of. It's all a long way off being usable, though.
- lupire 4y ago
  Isn't printing newlines and tabs easier than graphviz?
  - ColinWright 4y ago
    I guess I don't understand what's being suggested, because this comment makes no sense to me. I have a large and complex DiGraph ... are you suggesting there's a simple way of laying it out using plain text? Here's an example of another chart produced by my system: https://www.solipsys.co.uk/Chartter/ReadingHeyer_20220429.svg https://www.solipsys.co.uk/Chartter/ReadingHeyer_20220429.sv... How would you produce that with newlines and tabs? If you're suggesting the usual linear/indented version that existing social media systems use, that's exactly what I'm trying to get away from, so I can properly visualise the entire tree, seeing descendants as descendants, and not as a comment a long way down the page. Maybe I'm just not understanding what you're suggesting.

ulnarkressty 4y ago

https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1529994566115348485.html https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1529994566115348485.html

ColinWright 4y ago
Great if all you want to read is the initial thread, but if you're interested in any of the discussion, that doesn't really help.
- meragrin_ 4y ago
  What good is the discussion if you don't fully read the initial thread? That graph makes it really difficult to do.
  - ColinWright 4y ago
    You can read the initial thread just by opening the chart and scrolling down ... the initial thread is there down the left side. But, you know, whatever works for you.
    - Noumenon72 4y ago
      Just reporting my experience like a focus group user: I opened the chart and thought "I am supposed to look at the thing on the screen". It was a reply out of context so it didn't make sense. I didn't consider clicking through because there is not an affordability of clicking like an arrow or a URL. I didn't scroll around because the thing I saw didn't grab my interest. I saw your other post and scrolled down to the top tweet on the left. I looked to the immediate right for the self-reply to the top tweet. It wasn't there, so I gave up. I didn't notice the lines heading off-screen and I didn't expect them there. My mental model was a tree with a single top-level element.
      - ColinWright 4y ago
        I've experimented in the past with putting a node at the top left to say to people "Scroll down", or "Scroll right", depending on which layout I've used, but folks giving usability feedback who are experienced with it say that it's annoying and irritating constantly to be told something they know. So it's the usual problem of helping the novices versus annoying the experienced. Given that there's no login or other persistence I'm pretty sure I can't solve that. I'll probably put the top-left node back in. Thanks for the feedback.

devonbleak 4y ago

Interesting concept and I think there's a great idea here buried behind some usability issues. Having an option to go top down might help, as would ability to collapse branches and maybe zoom out/in to get a broader overview and then focus on certain areas. In the left-to-right view I had to scroll down to get to the root of the tree and I was confused what I was looking at until I saw that - ensuring that the root node is always visible on load would probably help a lot. Seems like something D3 might be good at, making it more interactive instead of static svg?

ColinWright 4y ago
I've deliberately put the original thread running down the left with the discussions going off to the right, because that seems to be more usable for most people. Other options exist, I can just have it run as an ordinary tree from the top, but it's harder to find the "one true thread". I've used other more dynamic layout systems, but they tend to wobble about and give me motion sickness, or not do as well with the layout. There's a lot going on here. Yes, foldability, forcing layout, allowing people to move things around, I've tried all of these to the best of my ability, and other people have had a go, then given up and gone away. To do a decent job will require skill and time, neither of which I have. I am, as you might be able to tell, frustrated with this. I know very much how Ted Nelson feels. I have a vision, and I have neither the skillz to implement it, nor the ability to communicate it clearly to others. Yes, there are many things that can be done here.