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99% of retail payments already happen through a tightly regulated electronic payment system today. I haven't been denied my god given right to murder myself by

99% of retail payments already happen through a tightly regulated electronic payment system today. I haven't been denied my god given right to murder myself by purchasing tobacco and sugar products so far.

ekianjo 4y ago
> I haven't been denied my god given right to murder myself by purchasing tobacco and sugar products so far. The past does not predict the future
- ceejayoz 4y ago
  Sure, but that doesn't mean the past doesn't have any predictive value.
  - ekianjo 4y ago
    The past has absolutely no predictive value. Thats why we have a news business in the first place.
bennysomething 4y ago
Yes but that data is fragmented, not on a giant immutable ledger.
- ceejayoz 4y ago
  It's not that fragmented. Visa, Mastercard, and if you're being completionist, Amex and Discover. Four taps gets you virtually every credit card transaction in the Western world. Direct bank transfers are even more susceptible.
  - bennysomething 4y ago
    And cash! :)
WillPostForFood 4y ago
https://www.economist.com/finance-and-economics/credit-card-firms-are-becoming-reluctant-regulators-of-the-web/21805450 https://www.economist.com/finance-and-economics/credit-card-...
nverno 4y ago
The future for tobacco products is looking pretty bleak. In MA, now I can only buy juul 3%, no menthol or any other flavor, even worse than in CA. Besides, it costs as much as groceries now.
- toomuchtodo 4y ago
  Good! I know more people who desperately want to quit and can’t due to addiction than I do people who love tobacco and can quit anytime.
  - thatguy0900 4y ago
    Hopefully you have the same attitude when the sin tax comes for your vices, I suppose
  - yucky 4y ago
    Do you think prohibition has a particularly effective track record? Also, since obesity is the biggest health problem in the US, we can easily use this argument to limit caloric intake "for the greater good™". After all, what is the argument against limiting caloric intake if we should all be policing what humans put into their bodies?
BiteCode_dev 4y ago
Because you can still use cash. But once you can't, then the temptation to coerce people into "the right way" is going to be too big. Then you need to hope you don't need to go to a gay bar in an anti gay state, pay for an abortion without your parent knowing, or give financial support to a controversial political group.
- thawaya3113 4y ago
  So the problem isn’t the existence of a USD digital system. The issue would only arise if cash was eliminated. I completely agree on the need for cash, but as long as we’re also keeping cash a digital USD would solve every problem crypto claims to solve while still allowing for a non dystopian future. In fact, crypto is completely dystopian because there is absolutely no space for cash in it, and further, by being distributed and therefore pseudonymous at best, it actually opens massive privacy and security pandora boxes.
  - exo762 4y ago
    > In fact, crypto is completely dystopian because there is absolutely no space for cash in it, and further, by being distributed and therefore pseudonymous at best, it actually opens massive privacy and security pandora boxes. I don't think crypto positions itself as the only option (Bitcoin maxis aside). So there is definitely space for cash, space for tokenized USD, space for collateralized algo stablecoins. Why distributed implies "pseudonimous at best"? Have you looked into what can be done with zero-knowledge proofs? With MPC?
  - BiteCode_dev 4y ago
    Oh, I though it was the idea to go full electronic. Then yes, a perfect ledger for all monetary transactions would be great, espacially for big sums. Appart from that, the current financial system is mostly digital and satisfactory for day to day payments.
  - ridgered4 4y ago
    > In fact, crypto is completely dystopian because there is absolutely no space for cash in it, and further, by being distributed and therefore pseudonymous at best, it actually opens massive privacy and security pandora boxes. Is this true of all coins though? I know little about crypto, but I gather from reading on here while the privacy of bitcoin was greatly exaggerated/false other coins use actually privacy respecting schemes. Of course, that would assume that the schemes they use work perfectly which is probably a ridiculous assumption.
bko 4y ago
There's already been government attempts in restricting banking services to "undesirables", all under the guise of preventing "high-risk activity". Check out Operation Choke Point. It prevented a lot of legal sex workers from being able to use banking services. It's a kind of extra-judicial regulation where something is "legal" but not really because some agency can arbitrarily tell every banking provider to blacklist you. Competence is a big part of why you don't see as many nudges as you can, but it'll be considerably easier with a digitized US coin. And of course these departments get more sophisticated over time. Maybe they'll hire consultants from CCP to help them implement a social credit score. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Choke_Point https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Choke_Point
- halfmatthalfcat 4y ago
  Reading that wiki, nothing jumped out to me as unreasonable - at least the goal of Choke Point. What's wrong with targeting industries with high risk/incidence of money laundering? Is there high incidence of money laundering in sex work? If there is, then it's not exempt from being investigated. This isn't a reflection on the act of sex work but the shady characters using it as a laundering mechanism.
  - bko 4y ago
    It's about the implementation. I believe something should be illegal or legal. If it's legal all the same rights and services should be granted to individuals in this trade. Fraud and charge backs should be handled by the services processors and new services should arise to handle higher risk industries. Better than the state putting their finger on the scales https://www.vice.com/en/article/4w74jg/how-the-financial-sector-is-making-life-miserable-for-sex-workers-714 https://www.vice.com/en/article/4w74jg/how-the-financial-sec...
  - Ancapistani 4y ago
    A ton of gun stores lost their banking access as a result of this. Bank of America, IIRC, dropped a bunch of retailers with no notice. It’s definitely seen in that community as a back-door attempt to abrogate access to firearms.

ekianjo 4y ago

> I haven't been denied my god given right to murder myself by purchasing tobacco and sugar products so far. The past does not predict the future

ceejayoz 4y ago
Sure, but that doesn't mean the past doesn't have any predictive value.
- ekianjo 4y ago
  The past has absolutely no predictive value. Thats why we have a news business in the first place.

bennysomething 4y ago

Yes but that data is fragmented, not on a giant immutable ledger.

ceejayoz 4y ago
It's not that fragmented. Visa, Mastercard, and if you're being completionist, Amex and Discover. Four taps gets you virtually every credit card transaction in the Western world. Direct bank transfers are even more susceptible.
- bennysomething 4y ago
  And cash! :)

WillPostForFood 4y ago

https://www.economist.com/finance-and-economics/credit-card-firms-are-becoming-reluctant-regulators-of-the-web/21805450 https://www.economist.com/finance-and-economics/credit-card-...

nverno 4y ago

The future for tobacco products is looking pretty bleak. In MA, now I can only buy juul 3%, no menthol or any other flavor, even worse than in CA. Besides, it costs as much as groceries now.

toomuchtodo 4y ago
Good! I know more people who desperately want to quit and can’t due to addiction than I do people who love tobacco and can quit anytime.
- thatguy0900 4y ago
  Hopefully you have the same attitude when the sin tax comes for your vices, I suppose
- yucky 4y ago
  Do you think prohibition has a particularly effective track record? Also, since obesity is the biggest health problem in the US, we can easily use this argument to limit caloric intake "for the greater good™". After all, what is the argument against limiting caloric intake if we should all be policing what humans put into their bodies?

BiteCode_dev 4y ago

Because you can still use cash. But once you can't, then the temptation to coerce people into "the right way" is going to be too big. Then you need to hope you don't need to go to a gay bar in an anti gay state, pay for an abortion without your parent knowing, or give financial support to a controversial political group.

thawaya3113 4y ago
So the problem isn’t the existence of a USD digital system. The issue would only arise if cash was eliminated. I completely agree on the need for cash, but as long as we’re also keeping cash a digital USD would solve every problem crypto claims to solve while still allowing for a non dystopian future. In fact, crypto is completely dystopian because there is absolutely no space for cash in it, and further, by being distributed and therefore pseudonymous at best, it actually opens massive privacy and security pandora boxes.
- exo762 4y ago
  > In fact, crypto is completely dystopian because there is absolutely no space for cash in it, and further, by being distributed and therefore pseudonymous at best, it actually opens massive privacy and security pandora boxes. I don't think crypto positions itself as the only option (Bitcoin maxis aside). So there is definitely space for cash, space for tokenized USD, space for collateralized algo stablecoins. Why distributed implies "pseudonimous at best"? Have you looked into what can be done with zero-knowledge proofs? With MPC?
- BiteCode_dev 4y ago
  Oh, I though it was the idea to go full electronic. Then yes, a perfect ledger for all monetary transactions would be great, espacially for big sums. Appart from that, the current financial system is mostly digital and satisfactory for day to day payments.
- ridgered4 4y ago
  > In fact, crypto is completely dystopian because there is absolutely no space for cash in it, and further, by being distributed and therefore pseudonymous at best, it actually opens massive privacy and security pandora boxes. Is this true of all coins though? I know little about crypto, but I gather from reading on here while the privacy of bitcoin was greatly exaggerated/false other coins use actually privacy respecting schemes. Of course, that would assume that the schemes they use work perfectly which is probably a ridiculous assumption.

bko 4y ago

There's already been government attempts in restricting banking services to "undesirables", all under the guise of preventing "high-risk activity". Check out Operation Choke Point. It prevented a lot of legal sex workers from being able to use banking services. It's a kind of extra-judicial regulation where something is "legal" but not really because some agency can arbitrarily tell every banking provider to blacklist you. Competence is a big part of why you don't see as many nudges as you can, but it'll be considerably easier with a digitized US coin. And of course these departments get more sophisticated over time. Maybe they'll hire consultants from CCP to help them implement a social credit score. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Choke_Point https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Choke_Point

halfmatthalfcat 4y ago
Reading that wiki, nothing jumped out to me as unreasonable - at least the goal of Choke Point. What's wrong with targeting industries with high risk/incidence of money laundering? Is there high incidence of money laundering in sex work? If there is, then it's not exempt from being investigated. This isn't a reflection on the act of sex work but the shady characters using it as a laundering mechanism.
- bko 4y ago
  It's about the implementation. I believe something should be illegal or legal. If it's legal all the same rights and services should be granted to individuals in this trade. Fraud and charge backs should be handled by the services processors and new services should arise to handle higher risk industries. Better than the state putting their finger on the scales https://www.vice.com/en/article/4w74jg/how-the-financial-sector-is-making-life-miserable-for-sex-workers-714 https://www.vice.com/en/article/4w74jg/how-the-financial-sec...
- Ancapistani 4y ago
  A ton of gun stores lost their banking access as a result of this. Bank of America, IIRC, dropped a bunch of retailers with no notice. It’s definitely seen in that community as a back-door attempt to abrogate access to firearms.