5 ms·

If the union doesn’t have enough clout then the company can just ignore it. I don’t get why that’s surprising?

Semaphor 4y ago
> I don’t get why that’s surprising? From another [0] comment 2 minutes later: > There are clear obligations in Germany for how to integrate unions in a business and where/how they're able to influence business processes. How is it in the US? [0]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31528241 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31528241
- chrisseaton 4y ago
  I guess even in Germany a union can't just show up, with no demonstrable employee support, and start dictating that the company listen to them? You say 'comprised of their employees' - who determines this? You need a secret vote at least, or some kind of voluntary indication of support. You need to know people aren't being coerced.
  - jsdwarf 4y ago
    In Austria, the situation is as follows: the employees of a company can decide to form a works council, which may or may not consist of Union members. To establish a works council, you need support statements of at least 5 employees. The works council itself is then elected by all employees of the company. They can choose between different candidates, who might be more or less union-friendly. The works council checks for violation of labor laws and is also consulted if employees are set off.
  - jcrawfordor 4y ago
    Union elections are held in the US under regulations established by the National Labor Relations Board. These include, among other things, a secret ballot and measures against coercion. Employers are generally required to recognize a union which wins such an election. That said, it is also common for acquisitions to be structured as a transaction in which all employees are terminated by the acquired organization and hired by the new organization. This effectively "resets" the process and may require employees to hold a new election. However, employers can always recognize a voluntarily and skip the NLRB process which would make recognition mandatory. It seems that Microsoft has indicated their willingness to do so.
    - anamax 4y ago
      A secret ballot is NOT the only means. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Card_check https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Card_check
      - jcrawfordor 4y ago
        The card check process is more of a special case of voluntary recognition, in which the employer can agree to skip the election if the petition for election already has a majority of the employees. Typically the employer can still require that an election by secret ballot be performed, the exception requires special dispensation of the NLRB which is obtained by demonstrating that the employer has or intends to tamper with the election. The concept of a normalized card-check-only process is generally favored by unions because the NLRB election process is widely viewed as excessively favoring employers. However, it has never passed congress. That is, the "card check" as it is often discussed doesn't actually exist as the legislation proposing it has never passed. The existing mechanism is a fairly narrow exception that mostly exists for employer convenience.
  - danaris 4y ago
    I'm not sure what it would even mean for a union to "just show up". A union is by definition a group of employees. I guess you're talking about, maybe, representatives of a national union coming to an employer without there first being a union vote within...? That's not remotely like what's being discussed here. What this situation is, and what's being talked about, are a union formed within the company (whether or not it's affiliated with a national union) and whether the employer has to recognize it and bargain collectively. I can't even fathom the idea of a union with no members at a given company or organization "just showing up" and trying to get the management to bargain with them on their workers' behalf. It's just utterly nonsensical.
    - chrisseaton 4y ago
      > I can't even fathom the idea of a union with no members at a given company or organization "just showing up" and trying to get the management to bargain with them on their workers' behalf. It's just utterly nonsensical. That's how many unions work. For example look at what is happening with Amazon warehouses - existing external unions turn up and try to recruit workers. You also see it for example in the UK where unions have a political party and try to use that to change labour laws through normal government elections. Whether or not that's nonsensical is a matter of opinion!
      - danaris 4y ago
        I don't think that's a reasonable interpretation of what you said earlier, though. You were talking about a union "showing up and dictating to the company", not "showing up and recruiting employees to join the union through the normal legal process, then bargain collectively with the company the way unions do".
        chrisseaton 4y ago
        Bottom line is - the union needs to convince the company to listen to them. If they don't convince the company, then the company can ignore them. That was the original question.
- melony 4y ago
  And that's why Germany is riding on its legacy manufacturing industry's coattails and its political position in Europe instead of cranking out real innovations like the US.
  - ChuckNorris89 4y ago
    Not really. The reason Germany rests on legacy industries and failed to innovate in the software/internet age, has nothing to do with unions, but is mostly liked to conservative mentality.

> I don’t get why that’s surprising? From another [0] comment 2 minutes later: > There are clear obligations in Germany for how to integrate unions in a business and where/how they're able to influence business processes. How is it in the US? [0]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31528241 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31528241

chrisseaton 4y ago
I guess even in Germany a union can't just show up, with no demonstrable employee support, and start dictating that the company listen to them? You say 'comprised of their employees' - who determines this? You need a secret vote at least, or some kind of voluntary indication of support. You need to know people aren't being coerced.
- jsdwarf 4y ago
  In Austria, the situation is as follows: the employees of a company can decide to form a works council, which may or may not consist of Union members. To establish a works council, you need support statements of at least 5 employees. The works council itself is then elected by all employees of the company. They can choose between different candidates, who might be more or less union-friendly. The works council checks for violation of labor laws and is also consulted if employees are set off.
- jcrawfordor 4y ago
  Union elections are held in the US under regulations established by the National Labor Relations Board. These include, among other things, a secret ballot and measures against coercion. Employers are generally required to recognize a union which wins such an election. That said, it is also common for acquisitions to be structured as a transaction in which all employees are terminated by the acquired organization and hired by the new organization. This effectively "resets" the process and may require employees to hold a new election. However, employers can always recognize a voluntarily and skip the NLRB process which would make recognition mandatory. It seems that Microsoft has indicated their willingness to do so.
  - anamax 4y ago
    A secret ballot is NOT the only means. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Card_check https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Card_check
    - jcrawfordor 4y ago
      The card check process is more of a special case of voluntary recognition, in which the employer can agree to skip the election if the petition for election already has a majority of the employees. Typically the employer can still require that an election by secret ballot be performed, the exception requires special dispensation of the NLRB which is obtained by demonstrating that the employer has or intends to tamper with the election. The concept of a normalized card-check-only process is generally favored by unions because the NLRB election process is widely viewed as excessively favoring employers. However, it has never passed congress. That is, the "card check" as it is often discussed doesn't actually exist as the legislation proposing it has never passed. The existing mechanism is a fairly narrow exception that mostly exists for employer convenience.
- danaris 4y ago
  I'm not sure what it would even mean for a union to "just show up". A union is by definition a group of employees. I guess you're talking about, maybe, representatives of a national union coming to an employer without there first being a union vote within...? That's not remotely like what's being discussed here. What this situation is, and what's being talked about, are a union formed within the company (whether or not it's affiliated with a national union) and whether the employer has to recognize it and bargain collectively. I can't even fathom the idea of a union with no members at a given company or organization "just showing up" and trying to get the management to bargain with them on their workers' behalf. It's just utterly nonsensical.
  - chrisseaton 4y ago
    > I can't even fathom the idea of a union with no members at a given company or organization "just showing up" and trying to get the management to bargain with them on their workers' behalf. It's just utterly nonsensical. That's how many unions work. For example look at what is happening with Amazon warehouses - existing external unions turn up and try to recruit workers. You also see it for example in the UK where unions have a political party and try to use that to change labour laws through normal government elections. Whether or not that's nonsensical is a matter of opinion!
    - danaris 4y ago
      I don't think that's a reasonable interpretation of what you said earlier, though. You were talking about a union "showing up and dictating to the company", not "showing up and recruiting employees to join the union through the normal legal process, then bargain collectively with the company the way unions do".
      - chrisseaton 4y ago
        Bottom line is - the union needs to convince the company to listen to them. If they don't convince the company, then the company can ignore them. That was the original question.
melony 4y ago
And that's why Germany is riding on its legacy manufacturing industry's coattails and its political position in Europe instead of cranking out real innovations like the US.
- ChuckNorris89 4y ago
  Not really. The reason Germany rests on legacy industries and failed to innovate in the software/internet age, has nothing to do with unions, but is mostly liked to conservative mentality.