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I don't think this is a good analogy. Not every programming project is a project that takes hundreds of skilled engineers. Not every programming project needs

I don't think this is a good analogy. Not every programming project is a project that takes hundreds of skilled engineers. Not every programming project needs to deliver a product for others to use. What Aella wants to do is something pretty simple, and it's frustratinc that this is so hard.

aahortwwy 4y ago
> What Aella wants to do is something pretty simple, and it's frustratinc that this is so hard. It's not that hard. Doing it like a Real Data Scientist is hard, but also completely unnecessary for a beginner non-programmer. That doesn't stop well-meaning folks from advising that approach (install pandas, Jupyter, anaconda, etc.) and overwhelming people. The Python standard library is batteries included. IDLE exists.
- newaccount74 4y ago
  I think the problem is that there are so many options, some more accessible to newcomers, some less. For example, I think Thonny is a nice entry level Python "GUI" But it's really hard to find what to start with from a google search.
  - aahortwwy 4y ago
    > I think the problem is that there are so many options, some more accessible to newcomers, some less. For example, I think Thonny is a nice entry level Python "GUI" And I think users tend to grow out of entry-level tools pretty quickly so it's hard for any one option to become universal. > But it's really hard to find what to start with from a google search. That's true, but I think it has a lot more to do with the quality of educational material for beginners than the simplicity or complexity of available tools.
giantrobot 4y ago
> What Aella wants to do is something pretty simple, and it's frustratinc that this is so hard. What Aella wants to actually do and how she describes what she wants to do may not have any relationship to each other. So we've got a potential X/Y problem. Then there's just the jumping in assuming Python is like Photoshop. You can "learn Photoshop" just by playing around with it. You won't be a graphic designer after a week of goofing around but you can make a cool logo for a web page or touch up photos you took with your phone. What Photoshop is to a selfie, Python is not to a CSV file. Even "CSV file" is ambiguous because that can actually mean a lot of different things. The difference between the Aella case and the story in the OP is Aella is assuming Python is Photoshop for CSV files. The OP knows JavaScript is a language and has a notion of how npm is supposed to work. Aella got bit by ignorance and stubbornness. The OP got bit by terrible tools.

aahortwwy 4y ago

> What Aella wants to do is something pretty simple, and it's frustratinc that this is so hard. It's not that hard. Doing it like a Real Data Scientist is hard, but also completely unnecessary for a beginner non-programmer. That doesn't stop well-meaning folks from advising that approach (install pandas, Jupyter, anaconda, etc.) and overwhelming people. The Python standard library is batteries included. IDLE exists.

newaccount74 4y ago
I think the problem is that there are so many options, some more accessible to newcomers, some less. For example, I think Thonny is a nice entry level Python "GUI" But it's really hard to find what to start with from a google search.
- aahortwwy 4y ago
  > I think the problem is that there are so many options, some more accessible to newcomers, some less. For example, I think Thonny is a nice entry level Python "GUI" And I think users tend to grow out of entry-level tools pretty quickly so it's hard for any one option to become universal. > But it's really hard to find what to start with from a google search. That's true, but I think it has a lot more to do with the quality of educational material for beginners than the simplicity or complexity of available tools.

giantrobot 4y ago

> What Aella wants to do is something pretty simple, and it's frustratinc that this is so hard. What Aella wants to actually do and how she describes what she wants to do may not have any relationship to each other. So we've got a potential X/Y problem. Then there's just the jumping in assuming Python is like Photoshop. You can "learn Photoshop" just by playing around with it. You won't be a graphic designer after a week of goofing around but you can make a cool logo for a web page or touch up photos you took with your phone. What Photoshop is to a selfie, Python is not to a CSV file. Even "CSV file" is ambiguous because that can actually mean a lot of different things. The difference between the Aella case and the story in the OP is Aella is assuming Python is Photoshop for CSV files. The OP knows JavaScript is a language and has a notion of how npm is supposed to work. Aella got bit by ignorance and stubbornness. The OP got bit by terrible tools.