4 ms·

And what if the thing you want to do pays a wage below livable? Or no wage at all. Not everyone wants to be a software developer or something that makes a lot

And what if the thing you want to do pays a wage below livable? Or no wage at all. Not everyone wants to be a software developer or something that makes a lot of money and it's a damn bleak view of the world where the grand diversity of the human race is squashed into a profit-chasing monoculture of workers. Just throw away your dreams and install air conditioning. It's the will of the market. We've gone from the Renaissance ideals of being well rounded and interesting people to being the best single purpose cog in the machine, devoid of any values except making money. What a depressing attitude when we could just focus on treating people fairly and with respect whatever their choices.

blindmute 4y ago
"We" haven't gone anywhere. If you have to work now, you would have had to work just as much in the Renaissance. Those ideals were by and for independently wealthy aristocrats. The working class has always and will always work. If you're willing to have the quality of life that a Renaissance working class man had, 15/hr is plenty.
- yunohn 4y ago
  “We’ve always subjugated and mistreated the working class” is not the win that you think it is.
  - blindmute 4y ago
    The working class has never had it better than they have it right now, except for a brief period of a few years in the mid 20th century. You wouldn't know it though, from all the complaining. Sure, society "should" keep improving, but in the meantime there's plenty of ways for someone to improve their situation, and none of those ways involve complaining about rich people.
    - yunohn 4y ago
      Do you mean they get to enjoy the fruits of modern life, and hence shouldn’t complain? Again, that’s not a valid argument. Let’s use some data, for example wealth distribution (1) - the lower classes have stayed lower income, and the middle class is rapidly transferring wealth to the upper classes. How is this sustainable? (1) https://www.pewresearch.org/social-trends/2020/01/09/trends-in-income-and-wealth-inequality/ https://www.pewresearch.org/social-trends/2020/01/09/trends-...
      - blindmute 4y ago
        It's not an issue of data. Wealth inequality by itself doesn't do anything bad, if the bottom can still afford what they need. It's a matter of having a realistic mindset and sense of self determination. A poor person today in the west has it drastically better than any poor person ever in history; they have a better quality of life as a poor person, and they have mind-bogglingly high levels of income mobility, in a historical sense. No other time in history could someone so easily go from poor to middle class. So when people spend so much mental energy complaining about how things aren't "fair", okay, sure, but you could instead just improve your situation. There will always be poor people, but an individual will not always be poor. We are not yet anywhere close to a situation where the highest expected value of an individual's time is to complain (instigating revolt).
        yunohn 4y ago
        Look, this is really a pathetic line of argument. If you’re selling self-help books, sure go ahead. This discussion is about minimum wage, wealth gaps, and relative compensation of CEOs. You do realise that? If you think everything is perfect, feel free to ignore such threads. The status quo exists and doesn’t need your support. Saying that working class people can just work harder and get higher paying jobs, doesn’t solve anyone’s problem. In fact, it only furthers the problem that only some jobs get a living wage, and even fewer jobs get a good wage. I have no idea why you think it’s okay to tell poor people to “just improve their situation”, and contribute both their/our tax money towards enriching the wealthy.
        4y ago

blindmute 4y ago

"We" haven't gone anywhere. If you have to work now, you would have had to work just as much in the Renaissance. Those ideals were by and for independently wealthy aristocrats. The working class has always and will always work. If you're willing to have the quality of life that a Renaissance working class man had, 15/hr is plenty.

yunohn 4y ago
“We’ve always subjugated and mistreated the working class” is not the win that you think it is.
- blindmute 4y ago
  The working class has never had it better than they have it right now, except for a brief period of a few years in the mid 20th century. You wouldn't know it though, from all the complaining. Sure, society "should" keep improving, but in the meantime there's plenty of ways for someone to improve their situation, and none of those ways involve complaining about rich people.
  - yunohn 4y ago
    Do you mean they get to enjoy the fruits of modern life, and hence shouldn’t complain? Again, that’s not a valid argument. Let’s use some data, for example wealth distribution (1) - the lower classes have stayed lower income, and the middle class is rapidly transferring wealth to the upper classes. How is this sustainable? (1) https://www.pewresearch.org/social-trends/2020/01/09/trends-in-income-and-wealth-inequality/ https://www.pewresearch.org/social-trends/2020/01/09/trends-...
    - blindmute 4y ago
      It's not an issue of data. Wealth inequality by itself doesn't do anything bad, if the bottom can still afford what they need. It's a matter of having a realistic mindset and sense of self determination. A poor person today in the west has it drastically better than any poor person ever in history; they have a better quality of life as a poor person, and they have mind-bogglingly high levels of income mobility, in a historical sense. No other time in history could someone so easily go from poor to middle class. So when people spend so much mental energy complaining about how things aren't "fair", okay, sure, but you could instead just improve your situation. There will always be poor people, but an individual will not always be poor. We are not yet anywhere close to a situation where the highest expected value of an individual's time is to complain (instigating revolt).
      - yunohn 4y ago
        Look, this is really a pathetic line of argument. If you’re selling self-help books, sure go ahead. This discussion is about minimum wage, wealth gaps, and relative compensation of CEOs. You do realise that? If you think everything is perfect, feel free to ignore such threads. The status quo exists and doesn’t need your support. Saying that working class people can just work harder and get higher paying jobs, doesn’t solve anyone’s problem. In fact, it only furthers the problem that only some jobs get a living wage, and even fewer jobs get a good wage. I have no idea why you think it’s okay to tell poor people to “just improve their situation”, and contribute both their/our tax money towards enriching the wealthy.
        4y ago