5 ms·

Didn't think of that angle, but perhaps! Pretty much everything in transportation is being pushed in the direction of centralized control; hence, the focus on

by donw 4y ago

Didn't think of that angle, but perhaps! Pretty much everything in transportation is being pushed in the direction of centralized control; hence, the focus on EVs and the push against biofuels. The marketing is all "climate change", but the reality is that biofuel-based vehicles can, in theory, be manufactured locally with machine tools, and the fuel can be grown locally as well. I'd bet money that they're better for the environment, too. And no, not interested in some "study" from Harvard funded by people that have a deeply-vested interest in EVs. Modern battery tech is complicated. Manufacturing has to be much more centralized. And has plenty of places to insert remotely-operated control mechanisms linking to cellular networks.

DennisP 4y ago
On the other hand, any electric car can be charged from solar panels on your roof. Then there's Aptera, which can charge itself from the sun if you're in a reasonably sunny area, and which has a strong commitment to right-to-repair: https://aptera.us/right-to-repair-commitment-feat-rich-rebuilds/ https://aptera.us/right-to-repair-commitment-feat-rich-rebui... They also make their own battery packs, despite not exactly being a large operation. https://aptera.us/battery-update/ https://aptera.us/battery-update/
- telchar 4y ago
  Color me surprised to see that name again! I thought Aptera was dead and gone. I hope they fare better this time. The solar car route could be an interesting niche.
  - DennisP 4y ago
    Yep. Car looks pretty much the same as the old version. Sandy Munro, the engineer famous for taking Teslas apart, has been advising them.
- b112 4y ago
  Solar panels on my car roof might be good to charge my laptop. Or, keep a car from losing charge while idle. I think you'd have to leave the car in the sun for days, just to drive to the 5 minutes away store and back.
  - gambiting 4y ago
    It just doesn't make any sense if you know anything about physics. Sun provides about 1kW of power per square meter.....at noon, at the equator, with no clouds. Automotive solar panels like they use are about 20% efficient. Your average car roof is....let's be super forgiving and say 2sqm. So in the middle of the day, at the equator, you are generating about 400W of power. The average EV battery is 50kWh. So you'd need 125 hours in full sun to recharge it fully. During a regular sunny day you'd get maybe.....2-3kWh back into your battery? So yeah, about enough to cover ~10 miles in a regular EV. Sure it's better than nothing, but remember that this is in ideal conditions. In less than ideal conditions you are talking yeah, enough energy to cover a mile or two per day of charging. It's just silly.
    - prmoustache 4y ago
      You seem to forget that bar exceptions (people working on the road all day), most passenger cars are staying parked 99% of the time and use for small errands. The aptera is also built to provide up to 1000miles in its highest spec out of one complete charge.
      - gambiting 4y ago
        Right and how long does it take to charge that 1000 mile range in an average British city? A full year? And I'm not forgetting it - I'm just saying that the overall gain doesn't seem to be worth it. The cost of solar panels integrated into the car would pay for a lot of electricity from the grid instead.
        DennisP 4y ago
        Right, if you need to fully charge then plug it in. You'll do that after a road trip. But if you live somewhere sunny and typically drive 20 miles a day, you can keep it topped up by just parking in the sun. Some will find this worthwhile, others won't. Apartment dwellers without convenient chargers might find it handy. The comment I replied to advocated doing your own energy production, and if that's what you care about, grid power doesn't really compete.
tialaramex 4y ago
> biofuel-based vehicles can, in theory, be manufactured locally with machine tools The excellent thing about electricity is that it's fungible. Electricity from a wind farm in the North Sea, a nuclear plant in the South of France or a Texan solar panel is identical as far as the electric vehicle is concerned. In contrast with bio-fuels if you can't make the right chemical soup for this specific model of engine well too bad, buy a new engine or undertake expensive conversion. There are immediate practical advantages (many EV owners never spend any time putting "fuel" into their vehicle, unlike with ICE, since just charging it whenever it's sat around doing nothing is easy with electricity) but there are also large strategic advantages in terms of energy independence. To get even the poor efficiency of modern internal combustion engines took a lot of careful engineering which would be undone by your "local machine tools" approach, so that makes the bargain even worse. In contrast it's easy to build high efficiency electric motors, and we've been doing that in many applications for years. To the extent the answer isn't EVs that's because the answer is less car culture.
- userbinator 4y ago
  In contrast with bio-fuels if you can't make the right chemical soup for this specific model of engine well too bad, buy a new engine or undertake expensive conversion Something like biodiesel is almost entirely a drop-in replacement, and diesel engines will burn a wide range of flammable liquids. Gasoline engines can be fairly easily converted to burn a bunch of other fuels too.
  - tialaramex 4y ago
    > diesel engines will burn a wide range of flammable liquids Rudolf Diesel's engine will indeed burn lots of things to produce power. But the diesel engine in your 2022 car isn't just Mr Diesel's machine with nicer bodywork, it has been carefully fine-tuned for efficiency, ride, emissions and other considerations, including by using self-lubricating fuel injectors. If you use the wrong fuel on a good day you destroy those benefits and on a bad day you're also destroying the expensive engine itself.
- cesarb 4y ago

by donw 4y ago

DennisP 4y ago

On the other hand, any electric car can be charged from solar panels on your roof. Then there's Aptera, which can charge itself from the sun if you're in a reasonably sunny area, and which has a strong commitment to right-to-repair: https://aptera.us/right-to-repair-commitment-feat-rich-rebuilds/ https://aptera.us/right-to-repair-commitment-feat-rich-rebui... They also make their own battery packs, despite not exactly being a large operation. https://aptera.us/battery-update/ https://aptera.us/battery-update/

telchar 4y ago
Color me surprised to see that name again! I thought Aptera was dead and gone. I hope they fare better this time. The solar car route could be an interesting niche.
- DennisP 4y ago
  Yep. Car looks pretty much the same as the old version. Sandy Munro, the engineer famous for taking Teslas apart, has been advising them.
b112 4y ago
Solar panels on my car roof might be good to charge my laptop. Or, keep a car from losing charge while idle. I think you'd have to leave the car in the sun for days, just to drive to the 5 minutes away store and back.
- gambiting 4y ago
  It just doesn't make any sense if you know anything about physics. Sun provides about 1kW of power per square meter.....at noon, at the equator, with no clouds. Automotive solar panels like they use are about 20% efficient. Your average car roof is....let's be super forgiving and say 2sqm. So in the middle of the day, at the equator, you are generating about 400W of power. The average EV battery is 50kWh. So you'd need 125 hours in full sun to recharge it fully. During a regular sunny day you'd get maybe.....2-3kWh back into your battery? So yeah, about enough to cover ~10 miles in a regular EV. Sure it's better than nothing, but remember that this is in ideal conditions. In less than ideal conditions you are talking yeah, enough energy to cover a mile or two per day of charging. It's just silly.
  - prmoustache 4y ago
    You seem to forget that bar exceptions (people working on the road all day), most passenger cars are staying parked 99% of the time and use for small errands. The aptera is also built to provide up to 1000miles in its highest spec out of one complete charge.
    - gambiting 4y ago
      Right and how long does it take to charge that 1000 mile range in an average British city? A full year? And I'm not forgetting it - I'm just saying that the overall gain doesn't seem to be worth it. The cost of solar panels integrated into the car would pay for a lot of electricity from the grid instead.
      - DennisP 4y ago
        Right, if you need to fully charge then plug it in. You'll do that after a road trip. But if you live somewhere sunny and typically drive 20 miles a day, you can keep it topped up by just parking in the sun. Some will find this worthwhile, others won't. Apartment dwellers without convenient chargers might find it handy. The comment I replied to advocated doing your own energy production, and if that's what you care about, grid power doesn't really compete.

tialaramex 4y ago

> biofuel-based vehicles can, in theory, be manufactured locally with machine tools The excellent thing about electricity is that it's fungible. Electricity from a wind farm in the North Sea, a nuclear plant in the South of France or a Texan solar panel is identical as far as the electric vehicle is concerned. In contrast with bio-fuels if you can't make the right chemical soup for this specific model of engine well too bad, buy a new engine or undertake expensive conversion. There are immediate practical advantages (many EV owners never spend any time putting "fuel" into their vehicle, unlike with ICE, since just charging it whenever it's sat around doing nothing is easy with electricity) but there are also large strategic advantages in terms of energy independence. To get even the poor efficiency of modern internal combustion engines took a lot of careful engineering which would be undone by your "local machine tools" approach, so that makes the bargain even worse. In contrast it's easy to build high efficiency electric motors, and we've been doing that in many applications for years. To the extent the answer isn't EVs that's because the answer is less car culture.

userbinator 4y ago
In contrast with bio-fuels if you can't make the right chemical soup for this specific model of engine well too bad, buy a new engine or undertake expensive conversion Something like biodiesel is almost entirely a drop-in replacement, and diesel engines will burn a wide range of flammable liquids. Gasoline engines can be fairly easily converted to burn a bunch of other fuels too.
- tialaramex 4y ago
  > diesel engines will burn a wide range of flammable liquids Rudolf Diesel's engine will indeed burn lots of things to produce power. But the diesel engine in your 2022 car isn't just Mr Diesel's machine with nicer bodywork, it has been carefully fine-tuned for efficiency, ride, emissions and other considerations, including by using self-lubricating fuel injectors. If you use the wrong fuel on a good day you destroy those benefits and on a bad day you're also destroying the expensive engine itself.
cesarb 4y ago