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I often hear this and let me just pose this question... Damn near everyone in America, at least, has access to YouTube or other streaming services. I learned h

I often hear this and let me just pose this question... Damn near everyone in America, at least, has access to YouTube or other streaming services. I learned how to program in R from The Teaching Company Plus' (now Wondrium)'s "Learning Statistics: Concepts and Applications in R". 24 lectures. 12 hours of content. Resources available for download. It was the springboard that allowed me to seek out deeper resources and expand my knowledge. Total price, $10.81 for a one month subscription. You can probably find a lot of equally good free courses at other websites. My point being this. The information is out there for people willing to seek it out. I came up poor. Really poor. Like, we're having mayonnaise sandwiches tonight for dinner poor. And if you're wondering what's in a mayonnaise sandwich, it's in the name. Mayonnaise. Bread. Period. Now maybe we need to cultivate a sense of curiosity in our students, so even the ones who end up as warehouse workers at an Amazon can one day aspire to something greater, but at some point, people have to take some responsibility for how their own lives are turning out. It's really easy to point the finger to society, to the government, to the person next door to you, but at the end of the day, most people have the tools (smartphones, cheap laptops), and they absolutely have the time. But the drive is something that no government program or no private initiative can give them - that you have to pull out of your gut yourself. And if you can't do that, you're doomed to a life of mediocrity. Choose your hard.

arinlen 4y ago
> Damn near everyone in America, at least, has access to YouTube or other streaming services. I learned how to program in R (...) Enough with this pseudo-moralistic perpetuation of abuse, specially the tone-deaf ones based on survivorship bias. Just because someone is not able to win the lottery that does not mean they have no right to earn a living wage that allows them a honest living. Aren't we supposed to live in a civilized society? Why are you unwittingly normalizing exploitation and the widespread abuse that bars the majority of families from having a decent life? If not for the parents who can't be self-taught engineers, why not for their children? Are those also expected to endure hardship? Just pay people a fair wage. Is it that hard?
- cbozeman 4y ago
  > Just pay people a fair wage. Is it that hard? Yes. Because we have no idea how to define 'fair'. I hear 'fair wage' over and over but no one can ever explain to me what makes the wage 'fair' other than, "I have a job and I should be able to live on that single job!" Okay... why? Where is it written that you should be able to live on a single job? As soon as you can come up with an argument that's not emotive, and is instead quantitative, I'll listen. Right now, all I hear from people parroting this is that, "It's not right!"
  - greazy 4y ago
    > Okay... why? Where is it written that you should be able to live on a single job? > As soon as you can come up with an argument that's not emotive, and is instead quantitative, I'll listen. I have a feeling that you will not accept any argument based on general morality as you would describe it as 'emotive'. I think first that humans should not spend the majority of their lives working and sleeping. In other words: surviving. Especially when there are more than enough resources available to achieve this ( in your country). Second, exploiting other humans (as above) is absolutely wrong. These two arguments are not emotionally driven.
  - arinlen 4y ago
    > Yes. Because we have no idea how to define 'fair'. Well, we do. I mean, we have a pretty solid idea of what represents the absolute bare minimum. For starters, minimum wage should be a living wage. It should be enough all on its own to meet living expenses, including paying for a modest apartment, without breaking any effort rate limit. Is this too hard? Are we supposed to pretend that some people simply do not have a right to have a decent life? > . I hear 'fair wage' over and over but no one can ever explain to me what makes the wage 'fair' other than, "I have a job and I should be able to live on that single job!" Why exactly do you have a hard time understanding this? Look at yourself. Look at the living expenses you have, specially the basic necessities. You pay for the roof over your head, for the food on your plate, for the clothes on your back. Do you have a hard time quantifying that? This is even simpler than that. Landlords and banks already use the concept of effort rate. They already know that if someone's effort rate goes beyond 40% then they are at a significant risk of financial distress. Is it too hard to start from there and determine what's a living wage in any region? Or is there zero lack of interest, and a desire to pull the ladder out of your own feet to screw everyone less fortunate than you?
yunohn 4y ago
So… your point is that “anyone can become a developer that pays good money”? And this is a solution for systemic poverty and classism? Who do you think keeps society and your life functioning while you sit in front of a computer and code?
- cbozeman 4y ago
  My point is that anyone can learn what they want to do on YouTube. I served with an Electronics Technician in the Navy who started watching YouTube videos on commercial HVAC and now he does that as a living, servicing mostly restaurants in the Fort Worth-Dallas Metroplex, and not just making a "living", but last year his one-man operation made $300,000. Not too shabby for just watching YouTube and going to get the necessary certifications. Do you want to make the best pizza on the planet? There are YouTube videos out there from chefs all over the world, freely giving away their recipes. All you gotta do is pick up the ingredients and get started. If someone wants it bad enough, they'll go get it, they won't wait for it to be handed to them.
  - over_bridge 4y ago
    And what if the thing you want to do pays a wage below livable? Or no wage at all. Not everyone wants to be a software developer or something that makes a lot of money and it's a damn bleak view of the world where the grand diversity of the human race is squashed into a profit-chasing monoculture of workers. Just throw away your dreams and install air conditioning. It's the will of the market. We've gone from the Renaissance ideals of being well rounded and interesting people to being the best single purpose cog in the machine, devoid of any values except making money. What a depressing attitude when we could just focus on treating people fairly and with respect whatever their choices.
    - blindmute 4y ago
      "We" haven't gone anywhere. If you have to work now, you would have had to work just as much in the Renaissance. Those ideals were by and for independently wealthy aristocrats. The working class has always and will always work. If you're willing to have the quality of life that a Renaissance working class man had, 15/hr is plenty.
FieryTransition 4y ago
So the solution is to chase whatever the market dictates as "well paying", despite being against your interests, maybe drop whatever responsibilities you might have or just, like you say, live in mediocrity, if your socio economic situation forked your chances from the beginning, and your inherent abilities just don't cut it? Do you walk by the less fortunate, and think, they just didn't work hard enough and "kind of" are at fault for their own situation? Because that's a very typical American way of thinking, one that people adapt in America to cope with the poverty around them. I've seen it, from aquinteces who became big, moved to America, and slowly changed their view of people to cope with their suffering and their own fortune, partly due to a really badly made social system. And unfortunately, there are plenty of places like this besides America.

arinlen 4y ago

> Damn near everyone in America, at least, has access to YouTube or other streaming services. I learned how to program in R (...) Enough with this pseudo-moralistic perpetuation of abuse, specially the tone-deaf ones based on survivorship bias. Just because someone is not able to win the lottery that does not mean they have no right to earn a living wage that allows them a honest living. Aren't we supposed to live in a civilized society? Why are you unwittingly normalizing exploitation and the widespread abuse that bars the majority of families from having a decent life? If not for the parents who can't be self-taught engineers, why not for their children? Are those also expected to endure hardship? Just pay people a fair wage. Is it that hard?

cbozeman 4y ago
> Just pay people a fair wage. Is it that hard? Yes. Because we have no idea how to define 'fair'. I hear 'fair wage' over and over but no one can ever explain to me what makes the wage 'fair' other than, "I have a job and I should be able to live on that single job!" Okay... why? Where is it written that you should be able to live on a single job? As soon as you can come up with an argument that's not emotive, and is instead quantitative, I'll listen. Right now, all I hear from people parroting this is that, "It's not right!"
- greazy 4y ago
  > Okay... why? Where is it written that you should be able to live on a single job? > As soon as you can come up with an argument that's not emotive, and is instead quantitative, I'll listen. I have a feeling that you will not accept any argument based on general morality as you would describe it as 'emotive'. I think first that humans should not spend the majority of their lives working and sleeping. In other words: surviving. Especially when there are more than enough resources available to achieve this ( in your country). Second, exploiting other humans (as above) is absolutely wrong. These two arguments are not emotionally driven.
- arinlen 4y ago
  > Yes. Because we have no idea how to define 'fair'. Well, we do. I mean, we have a pretty solid idea of what represents the absolute bare minimum. For starters, minimum wage should be a living wage. It should be enough all on its own to meet living expenses, including paying for a modest apartment, without breaking any effort rate limit. Is this too hard? Are we supposed to pretend that some people simply do not have a right to have a decent life? > . I hear 'fair wage' over and over but no one can ever explain to me what makes the wage 'fair' other than, "I have a job and I should be able to live on that single job!" Why exactly do you have a hard time understanding this? Look at yourself. Look at the living expenses you have, specially the basic necessities. You pay for the roof over your head, for the food on your plate, for the clothes on your back. Do you have a hard time quantifying that? This is even simpler than that. Landlords and banks already use the concept of effort rate. They already know that if someone's effort rate goes beyond 40% then they are at a significant risk of financial distress. Is it too hard to start from there and determine what's a living wage in any region? Or is there zero lack of interest, and a desire to pull the ladder out of your own feet to screw everyone less fortunate than you?

yunohn 4y ago

So… your point is that “anyone can become a developer that pays good money”? And this is a solution for systemic poverty and classism? Who do you think keeps society and your life functioning while you sit in front of a computer and code?

cbozeman 4y ago
My point is that anyone can learn what they want to do on YouTube. I served with an Electronics Technician in the Navy who started watching YouTube videos on commercial HVAC and now he does that as a living, servicing mostly restaurants in the Fort Worth-Dallas Metroplex, and not just making a "living", but last year his one-man operation made $300,000. Not too shabby for just watching YouTube and going to get the necessary certifications. Do you want to make the best pizza on the planet? There are YouTube videos out there from chefs all over the world, freely giving away their recipes. All you gotta do is pick up the ingredients and get started. If someone wants it bad enough, they'll go get it, they won't wait for it to be handed to them.
- over_bridge 4y ago
  And what if the thing you want to do pays a wage below livable? Or no wage at all. Not everyone wants to be a software developer or something that makes a lot of money and it's a damn bleak view of the world where the grand diversity of the human race is squashed into a profit-chasing monoculture of workers. Just throw away your dreams and install air conditioning. It's the will of the market. We've gone from the Renaissance ideals of being well rounded and interesting people to being the best single purpose cog in the machine, devoid of any values except making money. What a depressing attitude when we could just focus on treating people fairly and with respect whatever their choices.
  - blindmute 4y ago
    "We" haven't gone anywhere. If you have to work now, you would have had to work just as much in the Renaissance. Those ideals were by and for independently wealthy aristocrats. The working class has always and will always work. If you're willing to have the quality of life that a Renaissance working class man had, 15/hr is plenty.

FieryTransition 4y ago

So the solution is to chase whatever the market dictates as "well paying", despite being against your interests, maybe drop whatever responsibilities you might have or just, like you say, live in mediocrity, if your socio economic situation forked your chances from the beginning, and your inherent abilities just don't cut it? Do you walk by the less fortunate, and think, they just didn't work hard enough and "kind of" are at fault for their own situation? Because that's a very typical American way of thinking, one that people adapt in America to cope with the poverty around them. I've seen it, from aquinteces who became big, moved to America, and slowly changed their view of people to cope with their suffering and their own fortune, partly due to a really badly made social system. And unfortunately, there are plenty of places like this besides America.