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The suicide rate in South Korea is quite high, yet the rate of gun ownership is low, and guns are typically not the method of choice. There is more going on in

The suicide rate in South Korea is quite high, yet the rate of gun ownership is low, and guns are typically not the method of choice. There is more going on in US suicide statistics than merely the presence of guns.

scotty79 4y ago
You can't compare suicide rates between countries. Too many confounding factors. But you can compare suicide rates between people in the same state who are gun owners and not. They did and it turned out that gun owners have 4 times higher risk of suicide (by any method) than others. https://www.nbcnews.com/health/mental-health/handgun-ownership-major-risk-factor-suicide-n1223666 https://www.nbcnews.com/health/mental-health/handgun-ownersh... "four-fold increase overall in the risk of suicide"
- lliamander 4y ago
  > You can't compare suicide rates between countries. Too many confounding factors. You can just as easily compare suicide rates as you can compare murder rates (which gun control advocates are inclined to do). Of course, you are right about confounding factors, which is why we should be careful about the conclusions we draw. However, I think we can safely conclude that the presence or absence of guns may not be the only factor in determining the suicide rate. > But you can compare suicide rates between people in the same state who are gun owners and not. They did and it turned out that gun owners have 4 times higher risk of suicide (by any method) than others. Not really much better than comparing across countries. There is more in common between these two groups, but it still isn't some randomized control trial. CCW holders have a much lower crime rate than those without. Does that mean that if we take away their permits (and their guns) those same individuals will commit more crime? Probably not. Likewise, while taking away guns probably will have some influence on the suicide rate, I doubt very much (or not as much as people think). Not a scientific study, but having known gun owners who were either suicidal or successfully committed suicide, they tend to be the kind of people (men, typically) who carry the weight of the world on their shoulders. The suicidal tendencies come on strong when they feel either like they have failed the people who depend upon them, or that people don't need them anymore. Taking away their guns might keep them from committing suicide long enough for them to get help (or for the feeling to pass) but that is by no means a guarantee. We also cannot ignore the consequences of taking the guns: a psychological loss of agency, and potentially physical loss of security, etc. It's not a simple problem to solve.
  - scotty79 4y ago
    > You can just as easily compare suicide rates as you can compare murder rates (which gun control advocates are inclined to do). You can just as easily compare mass of the moon to temperature of the Sun or any two numbers really. By "can't" I meant that there's barely any reason to do it especially when pondering the influence of a single factor. > However, I think we can safely conclude that the presence or absence of guns may not be the only factor in determining the suicide rate. Yes. I hope nobody thinks it's the only factor determining suicide rates difference between the countries. Because I don't think there's a single observation that could indicate that it's the only factor. > Not really much better than comparing across countries. There is more in common between these two groups, but it still isn't some randomized control trial. Vastly better than comparing across countries. Especially if one of those countries is USA that is very different from other countries. And it's randomized in a sense that there was no additional criterion other than gun ownership to separate two groups. The only other factors worth looking at would be the ones that correlate with gun ownership. Like being conservative for example. It might be that being conservative makes you more prone to suicide even if you don't own a gun. Further research is needed. > Likewise, while taking away guns probably will have some influence on the suicide rate, I doubt very much (or not as much as people think). If there's a 4 fold increase of the probability of suicide for people owning a gun then if you take the guns away, number of suicides in this group will drop by some significant amount (depending on how much of this increase comes from guns, and how much comes from factors that correlate with gun ownership). To keep the suicide rates roughly the same overall people who currently don't own a gun would have to start suicinding more because now there's nobody owning a gun and I can't imagine any possible mechanism that might cause it. > We also cannot ignore the consequences of taking the guns: a psychological loss of agency, and potentially physical loss of security, etc. It's not a simple problem to solve. I agree it's a thing that needs to be considered. However part of this sense of agency is agency to take their own lives in quick and simple fashion. I think that in some cases stripping someone of sense of agency might be beneficial. For the suicide to be attempted you don't only need to be depressed but also you need to feel enough agency to take your life. Part of the problem with some of antidepressants is that they don't change your outlook on life but they give you energy. So the world still looks horrible but now you feel empowered to finally do something about it and you kill yourself. But the argument about guns is not really about, let's ban guns to lower suicide rates. It's way more about, let's ban guns to prevent people who broke down from slaugtering dozen other people each.

scotty79 4y ago

You can't compare suicide rates between countries. Too many confounding factors. But you can compare suicide rates between people in the same state who are gun owners and not. They did and it turned out that gun owners have 4 times higher risk of suicide (by any method) than others. https://www.nbcnews.com/health/mental-health/handgun-ownership-major-risk-factor-suicide-n1223666 https://www.nbcnews.com/health/mental-health/handgun-ownersh... "four-fold increase overall in the risk of suicide"

lliamander 4y ago
> You can't compare suicide rates between countries. Too many confounding factors. You can just as easily compare suicide rates as you can compare murder rates (which gun control advocates are inclined to do). Of course, you are right about confounding factors, which is why we should be careful about the conclusions we draw. However, I think we can safely conclude that the presence or absence of guns may not be the only factor in determining the suicide rate. > But you can compare suicide rates between people in the same state who are gun owners and not. They did and it turned out that gun owners have 4 times higher risk of suicide (by any method) than others. Not really much better than comparing across countries. There is more in common between these two groups, but it still isn't some randomized control trial. CCW holders have a much lower crime rate than those without. Does that mean that if we take away their permits (and their guns) those same individuals will commit more crime? Probably not. Likewise, while taking away guns probably will have some influence on the suicide rate, I doubt very much (or not as much as people think). Not a scientific study, but having known gun owners who were either suicidal or successfully committed suicide, they tend to be the kind of people (men, typically) who carry the weight of the world on their shoulders. The suicidal tendencies come on strong when they feel either like they have failed the people who depend upon them, or that people don't need them anymore. Taking away their guns might keep them from committing suicide long enough for them to get help (or for the feeling to pass) but that is by no means a guarantee. We also cannot ignore the consequences of taking the guns: a psychological loss of agency, and potentially physical loss of security, etc. It's not a simple problem to solve.
- scotty79 4y ago
  > You can just as easily compare suicide rates as you can compare murder rates (which gun control advocates are inclined to do). You can just as easily compare mass of the moon to temperature of the Sun or any two numbers really. By "can't" I meant that there's barely any reason to do it especially when pondering the influence of a single factor. > However, I think we can safely conclude that the presence or absence of guns may not be the only factor in determining the suicide rate. Yes. I hope nobody thinks it's the only factor determining suicide rates difference between the countries. Because I don't think there's a single observation that could indicate that it's the only factor. > Not really much better than comparing across countries. There is more in common between these two groups, but it still isn't some randomized control trial. Vastly better than comparing across countries. Especially if one of those countries is USA that is very different from other countries. And it's randomized in a sense that there was no additional criterion other than gun ownership to separate two groups. The only other factors worth looking at would be the ones that correlate with gun ownership. Like being conservative for example. It might be that being conservative makes you more prone to suicide even if you don't own a gun. Further research is needed. > Likewise, while taking away guns probably will have some influence on the suicide rate, I doubt very much (or not as much as people think). If there's a 4 fold increase of the probability of suicide for people owning a gun then if you take the guns away, number of suicides in this group will drop by some significant amount (depending on how much of this increase comes from guns, and how much comes from factors that correlate with gun ownership). To keep the suicide rates roughly the same overall people who currently don't own a gun would have to start suicinding more because now there's nobody owning a gun and I can't imagine any possible mechanism that might cause it. > We also cannot ignore the consequences of taking the guns: a psychological loss of agency, and potentially physical loss of security, etc. It's not a simple problem to solve. I agree it's a thing that needs to be considered. However part of this sense of agency is agency to take their own lives in quick and simple fashion. I think that in some cases stripping someone of sense of agency might be beneficial. For the suicide to be attempted you don't only need to be depressed but also you need to feel enough agency to take your life. Part of the problem with some of antidepressants is that they don't change your outlook on life but they give you energy. So the world still looks horrible but now you feel empowered to finally do something about it and you kill yourself. But the argument about guns is not really about, let's ban guns to lower suicide rates. It's way more about, let's ban guns to prevent people who broke down from slaugtering dozen other people each.