5 ms·

Uvalde Police Went in for Their Own Kids During Shooting

50 points by swills 4y ago

Vosporos 4y ago
How do you reform this?
- joshstrange 4y ago
  Criminal sentences for the cops involved. But that's a pipe dream. Cops love nothing more than closing ranks to protect their own, no matter how dirty.
  - lazyant 4y ago
    USSC ruled cops don't have to protect people https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warren_v._District_of_Columbia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warren_v._District_of_Columbia
    - joshstrange 4y ago
      Yeah, I know about that ruling. It’s morally reprehensible and I think it should be struck down. That or we need to strip the vast majority of the powers that the police have.
- smt88 4y ago
  You don't. It's human nature. Instead you enact one of the many reforms that successfully prevent frequent school shootings in every other country.
  - sketchyj 4y ago
    This is not human nature, this is criminal behavior: https://twitter.com/RealSpikeCohen/status/1529678726715387906 https://twitter.com/RealSpikeCohen/status/152967872671538790... Heavily armed police set up a barrier and let the shooter run wild for nearly an hour. Parents screamed and begged for them to intervene and they refused. When parents tried to push their way past, the police stopped them. You can see them pinning one father to the ground in that video, which is frankly the most upsetting thing I have ever seen. But everyone should watch it. It's important to understand just how indifferent police are to the citizens of this country. They have no legal obligation to protect anyone, but this goes even further than that. There are reports the police called on the children to yell if they needed help. When at least one child yelled "help", they did nothing, and the shooter was able to locate that kid and murder them. These cops should be tried for aiding and abetting the mass slaughter of children, but I would be surprised if they got so much as a temporary paid suspension.
    - genocidicbunny 4y ago
      Every single police officer involved should be charged and tried for felony homicide as accessories of the shooter. And if the courts don't punish them, the people should.
    - theartfuldodger 4y ago
      Still all unverifiable, but what seems likely if you put aside your breakdown as monstrous and look for a rational explanation and relate to police procedure The shooter makes it into the school under pursuit and enters a classroom with two adjoining classes. Officers are reported as shot in the process. At that point, there is an armed gunmen in a classroom barricaded in. It's now a hostage situation. The rest of the school is occupied by police and evacuation/threat plans are being followed. Storming a classroom filled with hostages is not procedure. Parents and others running into the school when they already know where the shooter is and what the situation does not help anyone. Although the timeline is 90 minutes or so from entry until he was neutralized that doesn't mean he didn't just shoot everyone in the first minutes. The idea that they just gave up or were all cowards is a bit irrational.
      - teachrdan 4y ago
        > what seems likely if you put aside your breakdown as monstrous and look for a rational explanation and relate to police procedure What does "police procedure" have to do with individual officers going in to save their own children? Do you actually believe this to be the procedure anywhere? > Although the timeline is 90 minutes or so from entry until he was neutralized that doesn't mean he didn't just shoot everyone in the first minutes. How could the police possibly have known that all the children in the barricaded classroom were already killed? What if some could have been saved if they hadn't been left shot and bleeding for 90 minutes? > Storming a classroom filled with hostages is not procedure. You can't have it both ways. If the kids were killed immediately then there were no hostages to worry about. > The idea that they just gave up or were all cowards is a bit irrational. By this point we've all seen pictures of multiple police officers with bulletproof vests and AR-15 style weapons waiting around outside doing nothing -- other than holding back parents who wanted nothing more than to do for their children what the cops did for their own. If this isn't cowardice, what is? > Officers are reported as shot in the process. This is the entire story. A couple cops got shot and the rest were understandably frightened. So rather than risk their lives going after the shooter, they rescued their own kids and literally left the rest of them to die.
  - MandieD 4y ago
    Grew up in Texas but happily raising my son in Germany for many reasons, only one of which is that after the Erfurt high school massacre in 2002, the German parliament changed the gun ownership laws to ban ownership for under-21s, and to require under-25s to undergo a psych eval. Additionally, you have to either have passed a non-trivial hunting license exam (involving face-to-face classes) or be a member of a shooting club to get a firearms ownership permit, so there's some forced contact with other people who have the chance to point out that you might not be someone who should be trusted with firearm ownership. Further major tragedies have happened, both directly with guns (Winnenden, 2009; Munich, 2016) and indirect (Berlin Christmas market attack with lorry, the theft of which was enabled by a murder with a handgun), but are just so much rarer, along with far rarer smaller scale tragedies - I've never heard of a small child playing with a gun and shooting themselves or a sibling in the nearly two decades I've lived here. Speaking of which, that's going to be an awkward conversation with my dad and brother before bringing my kid to visit his other home country; I know that my dad kept a loaded handgun in his nightstand as of a few years ago due to very overblown fears of a home invasion.
    - dane-pgp 4y ago
      > my dad kept a loaded handgun in his nightstand as of a few years ago due to very overblown fears of a home invasion. As you might guess, the statistics do not support his decision: "Guns kept in homes are more likely to be involved in a fatal or nonfatal accidental shooting, criminal assault, or suicide attempt than to be used to injure or kill in self-defense." https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/9715182/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/9715182/
      - dokem 4y ago
        > fatal or nonfatal accidental shooting, criminal assault, or suicide attempt Well good thing I'm an individual adult and, after assessing my lifestyle and level of fire-arm responsibility, feel confident that I have control over these scenarios (not) playing out. I don't have any control over someone breaking into my house at night.
        4y ago
  - krapp 4y ago
    >Instead you enact one of the many reforms that successfully prevent frequent school shootings in every other country. Something tells me that if Texas governor Greg Abbott, Ted Cruz and other Republican luminaries of the Lone Star state attend the NRA meeting later this week, that won't be suggested. Apparently the problem isn't guns, because the problem is never guns (certainly not around gun lobbyists,) it's that buildings have too many exits.
  - ancom 4y ago
- sonotathrowaway 4y ago
  Thoughts and prayers, apparently.
droopyEyelids 4y ago
A quick moral rule of thumb I use: "What would I expect to do if I found myself in this situation" The police leadership won't give the order to storm the building. My own kids are trapped in the building. I think I would reasonably break ranks and try to rescue my kids. I'd like to think I'd try and rescue some other kids too, but I may be bullshitting myself there. Anyway, I don't think the cops who went in for their own kids are evil. Seems very understandable.

50 points by swills 4y ago

Vosporos 4y ago

How do you reform this?

joshstrange 4y ago
Criminal sentences for the cops involved. But that's a pipe dream. Cops love nothing more than closing ranks to protect their own, no matter how dirty.
- lazyant 4y ago
  USSC ruled cops don't have to protect people https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warren_v._District_of_Columbia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warren_v._District_of_Columbia
  - joshstrange 4y ago
    Yeah, I know about that ruling. It’s morally reprehensible and I think it should be struck down. That or we need to strip the vast majority of the powers that the police have.
smt88 4y ago
You don't. It's human nature. Instead you enact one of the many reforms that successfully prevent frequent school shootings in every other country.
- sketchyj 4y ago
  This is not human nature, this is criminal behavior: https://twitter.com/RealSpikeCohen/status/1529678726715387906 https://twitter.com/RealSpikeCohen/status/152967872671538790... Heavily armed police set up a barrier and let the shooter run wild for nearly an hour. Parents screamed and begged for them to intervene and they refused. When parents tried to push their way past, the police stopped them. You can see them pinning one father to the ground in that video, which is frankly the most upsetting thing I have ever seen. But everyone should watch it. It's important to understand just how indifferent police are to the citizens of this country. They have no legal obligation to protect anyone, but this goes even further than that. There are reports the police called on the children to yell if they needed help. When at least one child yelled "help", they did nothing, and the shooter was able to locate that kid and murder them. These cops should be tried for aiding and abetting the mass slaughter of children, but I would be surprised if they got so much as a temporary paid suspension.
  - genocidicbunny 4y ago
    Every single police officer involved should be charged and tried for felony homicide as accessories of the shooter. And if the courts don't punish them, the people should.
  - theartfuldodger 4y ago
    Still all unverifiable, but what seems likely if you put aside your breakdown as monstrous and look for a rational explanation and relate to police procedure The shooter makes it into the school under pursuit and enters a classroom with two adjoining classes. Officers are reported as shot in the process. At that point, there is an armed gunmen in a classroom barricaded in. It's now a hostage situation. The rest of the school is occupied by police and evacuation/threat plans are being followed. Storming a classroom filled with hostages is not procedure. Parents and others running into the school when they already know where the shooter is and what the situation does not help anyone. Although the timeline is 90 minutes or so from entry until he was neutralized that doesn't mean he didn't just shoot everyone in the first minutes. The idea that they just gave up or were all cowards is a bit irrational.
    - teachrdan 4y ago
      > what seems likely if you put aside your breakdown as monstrous and look for a rational explanation and relate to police procedure What does "police procedure" have to do with individual officers going in to save their own children? Do you actually believe this to be the procedure anywhere? > Although the timeline is 90 minutes or so from entry until he was neutralized that doesn't mean he didn't just shoot everyone in the first minutes. How could the police possibly have known that all the children in the barricaded classroom were already killed? What if some could have been saved if they hadn't been left shot and bleeding for 90 minutes? > Storming a classroom filled with hostages is not procedure. You can't have it both ways. If the kids were killed immediately then there were no hostages to worry about. > The idea that they just gave up or were all cowards is a bit irrational. By this point we've all seen pictures of multiple police officers with bulletproof vests and AR-15 style weapons waiting around outside doing nothing -- other than holding back parents who wanted nothing more than to do for their children what the cops did for their own. If this isn't cowardice, what is? > Officers are reported as shot in the process. This is the entire story. A couple cops got shot and the rest were understandably frightened. So rather than risk their lives going after the shooter, they rescued their own kids and literally left the rest of them to die.
- MandieD 4y ago
  Grew up in Texas but happily raising my son in Germany for many reasons, only one of which is that after the Erfurt high school massacre in 2002, the German parliament changed the gun ownership laws to ban ownership for under-21s, and to require under-25s to undergo a psych eval. Additionally, you have to either have passed a non-trivial hunting license exam (involving face-to-face classes) or be a member of a shooting club to get a firearms ownership permit, so there's some forced contact with other people who have the chance to point out that you might not be someone who should be trusted with firearm ownership. Further major tragedies have happened, both directly with guns (Winnenden, 2009; Munich, 2016) and indirect (Berlin Christmas market attack with lorry, the theft of which was enabled by a murder with a handgun), but are just so much rarer, along with far rarer smaller scale tragedies - I've never heard of a small child playing with a gun and shooting themselves or a sibling in the nearly two decades I've lived here. Speaking of which, that's going to be an awkward conversation with my dad and brother before bringing my kid to visit his other home country; I know that my dad kept a loaded handgun in his nightstand as of a few years ago due to very overblown fears of a home invasion.
  - dane-pgp 4y ago
    > my dad kept a loaded handgun in his nightstand as of a few years ago due to very overblown fears of a home invasion. As you might guess, the statistics do not support his decision: "Guns kept in homes are more likely to be involved in a fatal or nonfatal accidental shooting, criminal assault, or suicide attempt than to be used to injure or kill in self-defense." https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/9715182/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/9715182/
    - dokem 4y ago
      > fatal or nonfatal accidental shooting, criminal assault, or suicide attempt Well good thing I'm an individual adult and, after assessing my lifestyle and level of fire-arm responsibility, feel confident that I have control over these scenarios (not) playing out. I don't have any control over someone breaking into my house at night.
      - 4y ago
- krapp 4y ago
  >Instead you enact one of the many reforms that successfully prevent frequent school shootings in every other country. Something tells me that if Texas governor Greg Abbott, Ted Cruz and other Republican luminaries of the Lone Star state attend the NRA meeting later this week, that won't be suggested. Apparently the problem isn't guns, because the problem is never guns (certainly not around gun lobbyists,) it's that buildings have too many exits.
- ancom 4y ago
sonotathrowaway 4y ago
Thoughts and prayers, apparently.

droopyEyelids 4y ago

A quick moral rule of thumb I use: "What would I expect to do if I found myself in this situation" The police leadership won't give the order to storm the building. My own kids are trapped in the building. I think I would reasonably break ranks and try to rescue my kids. I'd like to think I'd try and rescue some other kids too, but I may be bullshitting myself there. Anyway, I don't think the cops who went in for their own kids are evil. Seems very understandable.