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> I guess just because I'm critical of Tesla? No, it's because the ESG stuff seems more about virtue signaling than doing actual good, and the fact that that o

> I guess just because I'm critical of Tesla? No, it's because the ESG stuff seems more about virtue signaling than doing actual good, and the fact that that one main list includes oil companies but excludes Tesla is really compelling evidence of this. Other downvotes are probably for stuff like "the fact that they still use oil based or CO2 emitting roadways". I mean... c'mon.

systemvoltage 4y ago
Relevant Google talk on sloppiness of ESG arguments: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s6b7K1hjZk4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s6b7K1hjZk4
giantg2 4y ago
"the fact that that one main list includes oil companies but excludes Tesla is really compelling evidence of this." This doesn't seem like compelling evidence without diving into why. Tesla is quite shady in trying to avoid things. For example, not complying with battery laws in Germany, working conditions issues, etc. The ESG score also include "S" and "G". It's not all about "E". But I agree that the scores don't mean much. Which, for the third time, I recommend looking into the companies because their "benefits" are generally debatable. "I mean... c'mon." Well I guess I'll like to evaluate from a systems thinking standpoint. N-order impacts are relevant.
- dbrueck 4y ago
  > This doesn't seem like compelling evidence without diving into why Fair enough, but not only is a company pushing us towards renewable energy better than a company resisting that better in the abstract, the real issue is the specific companies that the ESG index kept while booting Tesla. https://slate.com/technology/2016/12/exxon-mobil-is-the-worst-oil-company.html https://slate.com/technology/2016/12/exxon-mobil-is-the-wors... https://www.npr.org/2019/10/22/772241282/exxon-is-on-trial-accused-of-misleading-investors-about-risks-of-climate-change https://www.npr.org/2019/10/22/772241282/exxon-is-on-trial-a... https://www.vox.com/22429551/climate-change-crisis-exxonmobil-harvard-study https://www.vox.com/22429551/climate-change-crisis-exxonmobi... The list goes on and on and on, and this isn't even taking into account all of their lawsuits from employees about inappropriate workplace things. Again, it's not that Tesla is some pristine company, but that it's extremely hypocritical for booting Tesla from a list but keeping at least one other company that is far worse in pretty much every way, and that's what really calls into question the legitimacy of the ESG ratings. > [criticism about criticism about Tesla relying on oil-based roads] > Well I guess I'll like to evaluate from a systems thinking standpoint. N-order impacts are relevant. Of course they are relevant, but dinging a company because they don't solve every tangential issue seems defeatist, and every ESG index company has at least as many ways in which they could theoretically do much more if we start connecting the dots to everything in the system they're a part of. So it's just back to the original point: the ESG scoring seems, at best, pretty inconsistent.
  - giantg2 4y ago
    Those articles are about old actions of the company. Those issues have led to changes that cause the company to be on the list now. They are spending billions on reducing emissions, researching alternative fuels, and partnering with renewable companies. Meanwhile, Tesla and Musk have a very recent historical pattern of not caring about environmental regulations, with no indication of any change in belief or practice. So one is at least putting up money to try to improve things, while the other DGAF about the environment if it gets in their way of their business. https://tyt.com/stories/4vZLCHuQrYE4uKagy0oyMA/6qN1EZx2r1p7aEhNUuWtzG https://tyt.com/stories/4vZLCHuQrYE4uKagy0oyMA/6qN1EZx2r1p7a...
    - dbrueck 4y ago
      Here's some newer articles about recent and even ongoing sketchy behavior by Exxon: https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2022/jan/18/exxon-texas-courts-critics-climate-crimes https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2022/jan/18/exxon-te... https://www.cnbc.com/2022/04/28/california-subpoenas-exxon-for-details-on-role-in-plastic-pollution.html https://www.cnbc.com/2022/04/28/california-subpoenas-exxon-f... https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2022/may/11/exxon-advanced-recycling-plastic-pollution-investigation https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2022/may/11/exxon-ad... https://grist.org/beacon/did-exxon-know-about-plastics-too/ https://grist.org/beacon/did-exxon-know-about-plastics-too/ https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/us-labor-board-impounds-ballots-union-removal-vote-exxon-refinery-website-2021-12-29/ https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/us-labor-board-impou... https://www.reuters.com/legal/litigation/mass-top-court-skeptical-exxon-defense-climate-change-suit-2022-03-09/ https://www.reuters.com/legal/litigation/mass-top-court-skep... When a company has literally decades of bad behavior (including multiple instances of being caught and then promising to do better and then being caught lying about it), it's a little hard to immediately accept at face value their most recent good deeds (especially since even some of them are already looking shady).
      - giantg2 4y ago
        "When a company has literally decades of bad behavior (including multiple instances of being caught and then promising to do better and then being caught lying about it), it's a little hard to immediately accept at face value their most recent good deeds (especially since even some of them are already looking shady)." True. Sounds like both of them.

systemvoltage 4y ago

Relevant Google talk on sloppiness of ESG arguments: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s6b7K1hjZk4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s6b7K1hjZk4

giantg2 4y ago

"the fact that that one main list includes oil companies but excludes Tesla is really compelling evidence of this." This doesn't seem like compelling evidence without diving into why. Tesla is quite shady in trying to avoid things. For example, not complying with battery laws in Germany, working conditions issues, etc. The ESG score also include "S" and "G". It's not all about "E". But I agree that the scores don't mean much. Which, for the third time, I recommend looking into the companies because their "benefits" are generally debatable. "I mean... c'mon." Well I guess I'll like to evaluate from a systems thinking standpoint. N-order impacts are relevant.

dbrueck 4y ago
> This doesn't seem like compelling evidence without diving into why Fair enough, but not only is a company pushing us towards renewable energy better than a company resisting that better in the abstract, the real issue is the specific companies that the ESG index kept while booting Tesla. https://slate.com/technology/2016/12/exxon-mobil-is-the-worst-oil-company.html https://slate.com/technology/2016/12/exxon-mobil-is-the-wors... https://www.npr.org/2019/10/22/772241282/exxon-is-on-trial-accused-of-misleading-investors-about-risks-of-climate-change https://www.npr.org/2019/10/22/772241282/exxon-is-on-trial-a... https://www.vox.com/22429551/climate-change-crisis-exxonmobil-harvard-study https://www.vox.com/22429551/climate-change-crisis-exxonmobi... The list goes on and on and on, and this isn't even taking into account all of their lawsuits from employees about inappropriate workplace things. Again, it's not that Tesla is some pristine company, but that it's extremely hypocritical for booting Tesla from a list but keeping at least one other company that is far worse in pretty much every way, and that's what really calls into question the legitimacy of the ESG ratings. > [criticism about criticism about Tesla relying on oil-based roads] > Well I guess I'll like to evaluate from a systems thinking standpoint. N-order impacts are relevant. Of course they are relevant, but dinging a company because they don't solve every tangential issue seems defeatist, and every ESG index company has at least as many ways in which they could theoretically do much more if we start connecting the dots to everything in the system they're a part of. So it's just back to the original point: the ESG scoring seems, at best, pretty inconsistent.
- giantg2 4y ago
  Those articles are about old actions of the company. Those issues have led to changes that cause the company to be on the list now. They are spending billions on reducing emissions, researching alternative fuels, and partnering with renewable companies. Meanwhile, Tesla and Musk have a very recent historical pattern of not caring about environmental regulations, with no indication of any change in belief or practice. So one is at least putting up money to try to improve things, while the other DGAF about the environment if it gets in their way of their business. https://tyt.com/stories/4vZLCHuQrYE4uKagy0oyMA/6qN1EZx2r1p7aEhNUuWtzG https://tyt.com/stories/4vZLCHuQrYE4uKagy0oyMA/6qN1EZx2r1p7a...
  - dbrueck 4y ago
    Here's some newer articles about recent and even ongoing sketchy behavior by Exxon: https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2022/jan/18/exxon-texas-courts-critics-climate-crimes https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2022/jan/18/exxon-te... https://www.cnbc.com/2022/04/28/california-subpoenas-exxon-for-details-on-role-in-plastic-pollution.html https://www.cnbc.com/2022/04/28/california-subpoenas-exxon-f... https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2022/may/11/exxon-advanced-recycling-plastic-pollution-investigation https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2022/may/11/exxon-ad... https://grist.org/beacon/did-exxon-know-about-plastics-too/ https://grist.org/beacon/did-exxon-know-about-plastics-too/ https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/us-labor-board-impounds-ballots-union-removal-vote-exxon-refinery-website-2021-12-29/ https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/us-labor-board-impou... https://www.reuters.com/legal/litigation/mass-top-court-skeptical-exxon-defense-climate-change-suit-2022-03-09/ https://www.reuters.com/legal/litigation/mass-top-court-skep... When a company has literally decades of bad behavior (including multiple instances of being caught and then promising to do better and then being caught lying about it), it's a little hard to immediately accept at face value their most recent good deeds (especially since even some of them are already looking shady).
    - giantg2 4y ago
      "When a company has literally decades of bad behavior (including multiple instances of being caught and then promising to do better and then being caught lying about it), it's a little hard to immediately accept at face value their most recent good deeds (especially since even some of them are already looking shady)." True. Sounds like both of them.