4 ms·

How can XMPP have failed when I and many others use it daily? When many things like Snikket and Zoom and WhatsApp are built on it?

by Zash 4y ago

bombcar 4y ago
They may use the protocol but it's not interoperable - you can't chat with someone on Zoom from WhatsApp; that's what people mean by "it failed".
- hkt 4y ago
  His other example, Snikket, is self hostable and interoperable with the wider xmpp world. The pattern is largely related to companies wanting to build walled gardens. On that basis, most open source tech has "failed" in the sense of having created greater value in VC backed companies with marketing departments than in communities without them. It isn't really surprising that it works that way, and IMHO it isn't failure.
  - bombcar 4y ago
    That's really the key and the end of it - SMTP was big enough that all the companies had to work with it, even the ones that originally wanted to walled garden (Lotus Notes and Microsoft Exchange are two big names, even now Exchange still has X500 stuff in there). The closest thing to that which chat has is text messaging, and I'm honestly surprised that MORE platforms don't have a text messaging "bridge" of sorts.
bradyd 4y ago
WhatsApp switched to the Signal protocol several years ago.
- zaik 4y ago
  Signal protocol refers to a cryptographic protocol not a messaging protocol. XMPP also has an Signal protocol implementation called OMEMO.
- spicybright 4y ago
  Signal as in the chat platform? Fantastic if so.
- egberts1 4y ago
  Only for two-way chat, plus the default is still not encrypted (using Signal protocol) for WhatsApp. In short, data-at-rest still can remains unencrypted for majority of the messagings on the WhatsApp’s server for all those who may be interested in them … UNLESS you enabled Signal/Encrypted option for two-way. Group chat for WhatsApp?, it’s still the proverbial pants’ down.
  - xico 4y ago
    No. All communications in WhatsApp are encrypted end to end, whether between 2 persons, or inside a group [1]. I believe you are referring to Telegram which does not use encryption by default. [1] https://www.whatsapp.com/security/WhatsApp-Security-Whitepaper.pdf https://www.whatsapp.com/security/WhatsApp-Security-Whitepap...
    - egberts1 4y ago
      I must be having a brain fart moment. Make that Telegram. My bad.
spicybright 4y ago
I think the argument for failure is because barely anyone is using it directly with an XMPP client. But as a back end layer for other platforms, it's a smashing success. According to the XMPP offical website to add some numbers to what you mentioned: ~800 million WhatsApp ~200 million Zoom ~4 million Grindr Matrix is also (one of) the more popular decentralized chat platform, which is built on XMPP. I wouldn't at all be surprised if there's chat services that have you connect your local app with XMPP to, and get a simple UI layer that only connects to specific servers and other provides other config settings. I've also heard of other uses besides chat, like for server management or video game multiplayer games for example. It's a great protocol that's provides delivery logic, accounts, etc. but keeps the actual messages simple and flexible for whatever you want to do. I think SMTP "won" from being focused on email management instead of a more general protocol for multiple uses. (not that you can't do wacky things with SMTP, of course)
- zaik 4y ago
  > Matrix [...] built on XMPP. Matrix is not built on any existing Internet Standards for messaging and is not compatible with XMPP in a meaningful way.
- OrvalWintermute 4y ago
  XMPP is in actually in Cisco VOIP too, and that Cisco VOIP Unified Communications [1] stuff is incredibly popular. The client side Cisco Jabber app is Cisco's version of it that works with their VOIP. Believe it is both Client & Server, and that is an interoperable implementation that looks like a reskinned pidgin somewhat in older versions, but has a great deal more functionality now, and looks capable of doing VTC and other things [2] Considering how popular Cisco VOIP is, I think lots more people have XMPP functionality than they realize [1] https://www.cisco.com/c/en/us/products/unified-communications/jabber/index.html https://www.cisco.com/c/en/us/products/unified-communication... [2] https://www.cisco.com/c/en/us/products/unified-communications/jabber/index.html?socialshare=video-jabber-unified-app-exp https://www.cisco.com/c/en/us/products/unified-communication...
- vegai_ 4y ago
  >Matrix is also (one of) the more popular decentralized chat platform, which is built on XMPP. It most definitely is not built on XMPP in any way.

How can XMPP have failed when I and many others use it daily? When many things like Snikket and Zoom and WhatsApp are built on it?

by Zash 4y ago

How can XMPP have failed when I and many others use it daily? When many things like Snikket and Zoom and WhatsApp are built on it?

bombcar 4y ago

They may use the protocol but it's not interoperable - you can't chat with someone on Zoom from WhatsApp; that's what people mean by "it failed".

hkt 4y ago
His other example, Snikket, is self hostable and interoperable with the wider xmpp world. The pattern is largely related to companies wanting to build walled gardens. On that basis, most open source tech has "failed" in the sense of having created greater value in VC backed companies with marketing departments than in communities without them. It isn't really surprising that it works that way, and IMHO it isn't failure.
- bombcar 4y ago
  That's really the key and the end of it - SMTP was big enough that all the companies had to work with it, even the ones that originally wanted to walled garden (Lotus Notes and Microsoft Exchange are two big names, even now Exchange still has X500 stuff in there). The closest thing to that which chat has is text messaging, and I'm honestly surprised that MORE platforms don't have a text messaging "bridge" of sorts.

bradyd 4y ago

WhatsApp switched to the Signal protocol several years ago.

zaik 4y ago
Signal protocol refers to a cryptographic protocol not a messaging protocol. XMPP also has an Signal protocol implementation called OMEMO.
spicybright 4y ago
Signal as in the chat platform? Fantastic if so.
egberts1 4y ago
Only for two-way chat, plus the default is still not encrypted (using Signal protocol) for WhatsApp. In short, data-at-rest still can remains unencrypted for majority of the messagings on the WhatsApp’s server for all those who may be interested in them … UNLESS you enabled Signal/Encrypted option for two-way. Group chat for WhatsApp?, it’s still the proverbial pants’ down.
- xico 4y ago
  No. All communications in WhatsApp are encrypted end to end, whether between 2 persons, or inside a group [1]. I believe you are referring to Telegram which does not use encryption by default. [1] https://www.whatsapp.com/security/WhatsApp-Security-Whitepaper.pdf https://www.whatsapp.com/security/WhatsApp-Security-Whitepap...
  - egberts1 4y ago
    I must be having a brain fart moment. Make that Telegram. My bad.

spicybright 4y ago

I think the argument for failure is because barely anyone is using it directly with an XMPP client. But as a back end layer for other platforms, it's a smashing success. According to the XMPP offical website to add some numbers to what you mentioned: ~800 million WhatsApp ~200 million Zoom ~4 million Grindr Matrix is also (one of) the more popular decentralized chat platform, which is built on XMPP. I wouldn't at all be surprised if there's chat services that have you connect your local app with XMPP to, and get a simple UI layer that only connects to specific servers and other provides other config settings. I've also heard of other uses besides chat, like for server management or video game multiplayer games for example. It's a great protocol that's provides delivery logic, accounts, etc. but keeps the actual messages simple and flexible for whatever you want to do. I think SMTP "won" from being focused on email management instead of a more general protocol for multiple uses. (not that you can't do wacky things with SMTP, of course)

zaik 4y ago
> Matrix [...] built on XMPP. Matrix is not built on any existing Internet Standards for messaging and is not compatible with XMPP in a meaningful way.
OrvalWintermute 4y ago
XMPP is in actually in Cisco VOIP too, and that Cisco VOIP Unified Communications [1] stuff is incredibly popular. The client side Cisco Jabber app is Cisco's version of it that works with their VOIP. Believe it is both Client & Server, and that is an interoperable implementation that looks like a reskinned pidgin somewhat in older versions, but has a great deal more functionality now, and looks capable of doing VTC and other things [2] Considering how popular Cisco VOIP is, I think lots more people have XMPP functionality than they realize [1] https://www.cisco.com/c/en/us/products/unified-communications/jabber/index.html https://www.cisco.com/c/en/us/products/unified-communication... [2] https://www.cisco.com/c/en/us/products/unified-communications/jabber/index.html?socialshare=video-jabber-unified-app-exp https://www.cisco.com/c/en/us/products/unified-communication...
vegai_ 4y ago
>Matrix is also (one of) the more popular decentralized chat platform, which is built on XMPP. It most definitely is not built on XMPP in any way.