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Sounds like you would love the Dark Souls games. They're Elden Ring without open world, and all legacy dungeons.

by arkaic 4y ago

oneoff786 4y ago
I liked the first one. Sekiro was their best imo. But elden ring’s design philosophy seemed to start with “what if we did dark souls but all doors and passages were open from the start?” The answer is unsurprisingly that many players track awkward paths of hitting things too soon and too late. If you’re going to have such significant character progression, linear games just make more sense. Breath of the wild gets away from it because link barely gets any stronger over the course of the game. Just a bit tankier. Fighting bosses in elden ring and finding they’re drastically undertuned really ruins the point of playing a soulslike…
- rajup 4y ago
  Having played some of the soulsborne games before I much prefer being able to go away and explore something else if I hit a hard boss or area. It keeps the game much more enjoyable and not feel as "grindy". You do have a point about hitting some things earlier or later than you should, but usually under-leveled players are not going to make much progress in the tougher areas anyway...
  - oneoff786 4y ago
    A larger problem is that the whole level system to all of these games is just kind of bad. It would be more fun if you just were appropriately leveled for each encounter and that was that. And each weapon were useable without needing to dedicate resources to it. I prefer feeling confident that I’m at a good state to fight something and if I’m losing it’s just a skill issue to practice. Farming in all souls games doesn’t actually net you that much, but it still feels like the easiest path forward at times. Elden ring is particularly weird with its scaling. Vigor gives much larger buffs to hp than people expect. Damage stats do much less.
    - sandworm101 4y ago
      >> It would be more fun if you just were appropriately leveled for each encounter Elder Scrolls: Oblivion. That leveling system meant you never ran into anything beyond your level. But it also mean that in the late game you were constantly hounded by insanely powerful creatures randomly out on the road.
      - vkou 4y ago
        Worse yet, if your character build scaled poorly, end-game became a horrible slog. If it scaled well, end-game became a walk in the park. Unfortunately, mods that de-leveled the open world were not very good. You had no idea if you were walking into an area you outleveled, or were outleveled by, and many early quests took you to incredibly high-level areas.
    - jerf 4y ago
      I think leveling systems are arguably the biggest mistake in gaming right now. By that, I specifically mean things that just power you up or down based on a single number (give or take a few numbers), which you can go up basically by just playing the game for longer. It gives the entire game a natural skew towards becoming easier over time, which, being backwards, then requires a large number of gyrations to overcome. I don't think the solution is just to rip them out and then proceed forward. And there are still other bad designs, of course; a sibling comment cites Oblivion. (Although I would call that an example of one of the "gyrations" I refer to; having a leveling system but then trying to remove it by somehow mathematically cancelling it is just weird. Quite distinct from not starting with one in the first place.) I would cite something like Bayonetta as a good example of what I mean, though by no means the only possibility. Especially as "RPGs" continue to move more and more in the direction of straight-up-action-game combat anyhow. You open up some weapons. You can double your health and the other resource (forget what it's called), and I'm not even sure I love that, but you can. But fights are not about whether you're level 34 and they're level 63. Difficult fights are difficult because they are difficult. In some sense the biggest mistake in my mind is that it gives designers such an easy answer; just slap a leveling system on it. More thought would be nice. I could also cite something like Slay the Spire. No "levels" in sight, but your character certainly becomes more powerful over time, and your play gets better. Skill acquisition, clever combinations of abilities and features, etc. So much better than just a number that goes up.

Sounds like you would love the Dark Souls games. They're Elden Ring without open world, and all legacy dungeons.

by arkaic 4y ago

Sounds like you would love the Dark Souls games. They're Elden Ring without open world, and all legacy dungeons.

I liked the first one. Sekiro was their best imo. But elden ring’s design philosophy seemed to start with “what if we did dark souls but all doors and passages were open from the start?” The answer is unsurprisingly that many players track awkward paths of hitting things too soon and too late. If you’re going to have such significant character progression, linear games just make more sense. Breath of the wild gets away from it because link barely gets any stronger over the course of the game. Just a bit tankier. Fighting bosses in elden ring and finding they’re drastically undertuned really ruins the point of playing a soulslike…

rajup 4y ago
Having played some of the soulsborne games before I much prefer being able to go away and explore something else if I hit a hard boss or area. It keeps the game much more enjoyable and not feel as "grindy". You do have a point about hitting some things earlier or later than you should, but usually under-leveled players are not going to make much progress in the tougher areas anyway...
- oneoff786 4y ago
  A larger problem is that the whole level system to all of these games is just kind of bad. It would be more fun if you just were appropriately leveled for each encounter and that was that. And each weapon were useable without needing to dedicate resources to it. I prefer feeling confident that I’m at a good state to fight something and if I’m losing it’s just a skill issue to practice. Farming in all souls games doesn’t actually net you that much, but it still feels like the easiest path forward at times. Elden ring is particularly weird with its scaling. Vigor gives much larger buffs to hp than people expect. Damage stats do much less.
  - sandworm101 4y ago
    >> It would be more fun if you just were appropriately leveled for each encounter Elder Scrolls: Oblivion. That leveling system meant you never ran into anything beyond your level. But it also mean that in the late game you were constantly hounded by insanely powerful creatures randomly out on the road.
    - vkou 4y ago
      Worse yet, if your character build scaled poorly, end-game became a horrible slog. If it scaled well, end-game became a walk in the park. Unfortunately, mods that de-leveled the open world were not very good. You had no idea if you were walking into an area you outleveled, or were outleveled by, and many early quests took you to incredibly high-level areas.
  - jerf 4y ago
    I think leveling systems are arguably the biggest mistake in gaming right now. By that, I specifically mean things that just power you up or down based on a single number (give or take a few numbers), which you can go up basically by just playing the game for longer. It gives the entire game a natural skew towards becoming easier over time, which, being backwards, then requires a large number of gyrations to overcome. I don't think the solution is just to rip them out and then proceed forward. And there are still other bad designs, of course; a sibling comment cites Oblivion. (Although I would call that an example of one of the "gyrations" I refer to; having a leveling system but then trying to remove it by somehow mathematically cancelling it is just weird. Quite distinct from not starting with one in the first place.) I would cite something like Bayonetta as a good example of what I mean, though by no means the only possibility. Especially as "RPGs" continue to move more and more in the direction of straight-up-action-game combat anyhow. You open up some weapons. You can double your health and the other resource (forget what it's called), and I'm not even sure I love that, but you can. But fights are not about whether you're level 34 and they're level 63. Difficult fights are difficult because they are difficult. In some sense the biggest mistake in my mind is that it gives designers such an easy answer; just slap a leveling system on it. More thought would be nice. I could also cite something like Slay the Spire. No "levels" in sight, but your character certainly becomes more powerful over time, and your play gets better. Skill acquisition, clever combinations of abilities and features, etc. So much better than just a number that goes up.