7 ms·

Should this be surprising or even upsetting? The Netherlands isn't like the US, it's an old nation with a very racially homogeneous population.

by usrn 4y ago

yunohn 4y ago
> Should this be surprising or even upsetting? While it doesn’t have to surprise /you/, the victims are used to racism so they aren’t surprised either. However, it definitely upsets them because they’re discriminated against and negatively affected, while you are not.
- usrn 4y ago
  - nicoburns 4y ago
    > We're not forcing White people into the middle east I mean, historically that's not accurate at all.
  - dvngnt_ 4y ago
    https://www.aa.com.tr/en/africa/dutch-colonization-wreaked-havoc-from-asia-to-africa/1075570 https://www.aa.com.tr/en/africa/dutch-colonization-wreaked-h... can't have it both ways
    - usrn 4y ago
      So was that justified then? I thought we decided that was wrong and stopped.
      - yunohn 4y ago
        The point being made is that “slavery has stopped” is a meaningless view - when there is still active racial discrimination and modern colonialism.
        usrn 4y ago
        >modern colonialism What? No one's going into other countries anymore (except the US but this is largely against the will of the people and even this has stopped for now) and colonizing them. The closest would be the mass immigration into developed countries which this prevents. This also robs developing countries of their best workers and keeps them poor.
        yunohn 4y ago
        Please educate yourself, you could just Google it. Your bio proudly says you’ve been banned for politics 3 times - I will stop engaging with your obvious racist trolling now. Modern colonialism: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neocolonialism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neocolonialism
  - yunohn 4y ago
    What are you talking about? The Dutch were colonisers who owned and imported slaves from various darker-skinned countries. Their descendants continue to live in the Netherlands now and face constant discrimination and peril, like this tax dept scandal. Further, like all “developed” countries, the Netherlands relies on a constant stream of “illegal” immigrants from developing/colonial countries, to support the country’s labor requirements. Given all this, your argument literally makes no sense.
  - mikojan 4y ago
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel
    - usrn 4y ago
      Yes but those definitely are not White people. EDIT: If you listen to them they'll agree, most are even vocally anti-White. Israel itself doesn't allow White people to immigrate because they don't want their demographics diluted.
      - mikojan 4y ago
        Pardon my humor I didn't realize you were an actual Neo-Nazi
  - Scarblac 4y ago
    Many of these people who are discriminated against _are Dutch_, both in nationality and because they were born there. It is their corner of the world.
  - dundarious 4y ago
    Even on this ridiculous basis, the tax authorities weren’t even so thorough as to assess if they were discriminating against migrants. Merely looking non-western was sufficient. Having the “wrong” nose or hair or skin color or name, or whatever superficial bases they used, doesn’t make you a migrant. Especially given Dutch history with its colonies, there are a lot of such people who have been living in NL for generations. > people with a "non-Western appearance" were subjected to stricter controls
mc32 4y ago
South Africa has a pretty heterogeneous population from an ethnicity perspective and they are very protective of locals when it comes to jobs (including some frequent rioting against foreigners) If you’re from up north, i.e. not southern Africa then you will most likely suffer discrimination. So yes, it’s not a particularly Dutch disease, it happens everywhere, including for example Mexico where Mexicans are preferred over foreigners in the great majority of jobs. The US is more an exception to this where we’re welcoming of foreigners by and large —with exceptions of course.
- tomrod 4y ago
  There are several places in the world welcoming of foreigners. The US is not particularly welcoming on an absolute scale due to draconian immigration processes and the rise of an authoritarian political party.
  - mc32 4y ago
    Yes Singapore and New Zealand but there are barriers to entry for regular folk.
    - throwaway2037 4y ago
      Germany too! I've heard multiple first-hand accounts from highly educated people who immigrated to Germany for work. They enjoy the high quality of life and feel welcomed in their community.
  - BuyMyBitcoins 4y ago
    > The US is not particularly welcoming on an absolute scale due to draconian immigration processes and the rise of an authoritarian political party. Compared to most other developed countries, The United States has a surprisingly permissive immigration policy. Have you seen the requirements to immigrate legally to a country like Switzerland, Australia, Japan, or Israel? The trouble is that so many people want to immigrate to the US - and there’s no feasible way to just let everyone in - the waitlist is massive. We even have a lottery system, where most other nations demand an above average net worth and some kind of in-demand skill. Despite all of this, to some it seems “draconian” that we don’t just rubber stamp everyone who shows up wanting to get in. >” the rise of an authoritarian political party.” I know what you’re alluding to, but both the Republican and Democratic parties have been around since the 1800’s. And, I gaurantee you their modern view on immigration is far more welcoming than how these parties treated immigration in the past.
formerkrogemp 4y ago
Is this surprising? Not if you've been following the case or know many Dutch people. It should be upsetting if you're Dutch. It means that your supposedly egalitarian and democratic society isn't open to everyone. Judging and discriminating based upon skin color and ethnicity is morally reprehensible. Especially in a negative fashion. Full stop. A majority ethnicity does not excuse racism. If anything it makes it worse.
- vt85 4y ago
j7ake 4y ago
It’s upsetting because Netherlands prides on being progressive and treating people equally regardless of sex or ethnic background. Note there are many Dutch people who are ethnically from North Africa or other non-white regions and they are systematically discriminated against. Netherlands treats white British citizen in Netherlands who can’t speak Dutch better than a Dutch person who looks Moroccan.
- Fnoord 4y ago
  > It’s upsetting because Netherlands prides on being progressive and treating people equally regardless of sex or ethnic background. Oh no, not anymore. That age is long over, since 9/11 or even before (9/11 was the trigger I suppose). Also, Portugal and USA have a more progressive drugs policy than we (NL) do.
  - MacsHeadroom 4y ago
    Maybe the state of Oregon is more progressive than NL, but not the other 98% of the US.
belter 4y ago
It is "slightly" upsetting taken into account this was the reason the latest government resigned, and the same prime minister who lied to parliament about it for 6 years...is the head of the new government! Same prime minister also deletes daily his personal official communications :-) "Dutch government resigns over child benefits scandal": https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/jan/15/dutch-government-resigns-over-child-benefits-scandal https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/jan/15/dutch-governme... "Dutch PM has been deleting text messages daily for years"( Dutch): https://www.volkskrant.nl/nieuws-achtergrond/premier-rutte-wiste-jarenlang-iedere-dag-zijn-sms-jes~b47ba005/ https://www.volkskrant.nl/nieuws-achtergrond/premier-rutte-w...
Scarblac 4y ago
The percentage of the Dutch population that is either immigrant, or has at least one immigrant parent is now 25.5%: https://www.cbs.nl/nl-nl/dossier/dossier-asiel-migratie-en-integratie/hoeveel-mensen-met-een-migratieachtergrond-wonen-in-nederland-#:~:text=Op%201%20april%202022%20woonden,procent%20een%20niet%2Dwesterse%20migratieachtergrond https://www.cbs.nl/nl-nl/dossier/dossier-asiel-migratie-en-i.... I don't feel that's still very homogenous.
- eldaisfish 4y ago
  it is. Nearly 75% of the population is homogenous so your point is moot. The Netherlands is no outlier in this regard and systemic racism is common in most ethnostates - see France for example, where the segment of population with at least one non-ethnically french parent is even higher than in NL. The problem is just as bad if not worse.
  - Scarblac 4y ago
    Yes, the problem is bad and needs to be addressed. It sounded like you pointed at the supposed homogeneity of the Netherlands as if it were an excuse.
Tade0 4y ago
I'm not racist, so I genuinely don't know: are eastern Europeans considered a separate race? Because it's sort of a public secret that if you hail from one of those countries which joined the EU in the 21st century, you're going to be looked at with suspicion. I suppose it has something to do with the type of people who went to the Netherlands for work right after that was made much easier, but nevertheless it's there.
rs999gti 4y ago
You have a point. NL was a country of Dutch people. The US was founded as a country built by immigrants.
- yunohn 4y ago
  > NL was a country of Dutch people. Ah so then NL shouldn’t allow other Europeans in either? Or is this opinion only about non-white people. Either way, the Dutch should’ve thought of that before colonising and enslaving other countries. And then importing slaves to their “Dutch only” land. Quite odd.

Should this be surprising or even upsetting? The Netherlands isn't like the US, it's an old nation with a very racially homogeneous population.

by usrn 4y ago

Should this be surprising or even upsetting? The Netherlands isn't like the US, it's an old nation with a very racially homogeneous population.

yunohn 4y ago

> Should this be surprising or even upsetting? While it doesn’t have to surprise /you/, the victims are used to racism so they aren’t surprised either. However, it definitely upsets them because they’re discriminated against and negatively affected, while you are not.

usrn 4y ago
- nicoburns 4y ago
  > We're not forcing White people into the middle east I mean, historically that's not accurate at all.
- dvngnt_ 4y ago
  https://www.aa.com.tr/en/africa/dutch-colonization-wreaked-havoc-from-asia-to-africa/1075570 https://www.aa.com.tr/en/africa/dutch-colonization-wreaked-h... can't have it both ways
  - usrn 4y ago
    So was that justified then? I thought we decided that was wrong and stopped.
    - yunohn 4y ago
      The point being made is that “slavery has stopped” is a meaningless view - when there is still active racial discrimination and modern colonialism.
      - usrn 4y ago
        >modern colonialism What? No one's going into other countries anymore (except the US but this is largely against the will of the people and even this has stopped for now) and colonizing them. The closest would be the mass immigration into developed countries which this prevents. This also robs developing countries of their best workers and keeps them poor.
        yunohn 4y ago
        Please educate yourself, you could just Google it. Your bio proudly says you’ve been banned for politics 3 times - I will stop engaging with your obvious racist trolling now. Modern colonialism: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neocolonialism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neocolonialism
- yunohn 4y ago
  What are you talking about? The Dutch were colonisers who owned and imported slaves from various darker-skinned countries. Their descendants continue to live in the Netherlands now and face constant discrimination and peril, like this tax dept scandal. Further, like all “developed” countries, the Netherlands relies on a constant stream of “illegal” immigrants from developing/colonial countries, to support the country’s labor requirements. Given all this, your argument literally makes no sense.
- mikojan 4y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel
  - usrn 4y ago
    Yes but those definitely are not White people. EDIT: If you listen to them they'll agree, most are even vocally anti-White. Israel itself doesn't allow White people to immigrate because they don't want their demographics diluted.
    - mikojan 4y ago
      Pardon my humor I didn't realize you were an actual Neo-Nazi
- Scarblac 4y ago
  Many of these people who are discriminated against _are Dutch_, both in nationality and because they were born there. It is their corner of the world.
- dundarious 4y ago
  Even on this ridiculous basis, the tax authorities weren’t even so thorough as to assess if they were discriminating against migrants. Merely looking non-western was sufficient. Having the “wrong” nose or hair or skin color or name, or whatever superficial bases they used, doesn’t make you a migrant. Especially given Dutch history with its colonies, there are a lot of such people who have been living in NL for generations. > people with a "non-Western appearance" were subjected to stricter controls

mc32 4y ago

South Africa has a pretty heterogeneous population from an ethnicity perspective and they are very protective of locals when it comes to jobs (including some frequent rioting against foreigners) If you’re from up north, i.e. not southern Africa then you will most likely suffer discrimination. So yes, it’s not a particularly Dutch disease, it happens everywhere, including for example Mexico where Mexicans are preferred over foreigners in the great majority of jobs. The US is more an exception to this where we’re welcoming of foreigners by and large —with exceptions of course.

tomrod 4y ago
There are several places in the world welcoming of foreigners. The US is not particularly welcoming on an absolute scale due to draconian immigration processes and the rise of an authoritarian political party.
- mc32 4y ago
  Yes Singapore and New Zealand but there are barriers to entry for regular folk.
  - throwaway2037 4y ago
    Germany too! I've heard multiple first-hand accounts from highly educated people who immigrated to Germany for work. They enjoy the high quality of life and feel welcomed in their community.
- BuyMyBitcoins 4y ago
  > The US is not particularly welcoming on an absolute scale due to draconian immigration processes and the rise of an authoritarian political party. Compared to most other developed countries, The United States has a surprisingly permissive immigration policy. Have you seen the requirements to immigrate legally to a country like Switzerland, Australia, Japan, or Israel? The trouble is that so many people want to immigrate to the US - and there’s no feasible way to just let everyone in - the waitlist is massive. We even have a lottery system, where most other nations demand an above average net worth and some kind of in-demand skill. Despite all of this, to some it seems “draconian” that we don’t just rubber stamp everyone who shows up wanting to get in. >” the rise of an authoritarian political party.” I know what you’re alluding to, but both the Republican and Democratic parties have been around since the 1800’s. And, I gaurantee you their modern view on immigration is far more welcoming than how these parties treated immigration in the past.

formerkrogemp 4y ago

Is this surprising? Not if you've been following the case or know many Dutch people. It should be upsetting if you're Dutch. It means that your supposedly egalitarian and democratic society isn't open to everyone. Judging and discriminating based upon skin color and ethnicity is morally reprehensible. Especially in a negative fashion. Full stop. A majority ethnicity does not excuse racism. If anything it makes it worse.

vt85 4y ago

j7ake 4y ago

It’s upsetting because Netherlands prides on being progressive and treating people equally regardless of sex or ethnic background. Note there are many Dutch people who are ethnically from North Africa or other non-white regions and they are systematically discriminated against. Netherlands treats white British citizen in Netherlands who can’t speak Dutch better than a Dutch person who looks Moroccan.

Fnoord 4y ago
> It’s upsetting because Netherlands prides on being progressive and treating people equally regardless of sex or ethnic background. Oh no, not anymore. That age is long over, since 9/11 or even before (9/11 was the trigger I suppose). Also, Portugal and USA have a more progressive drugs policy than we (NL) do.
- MacsHeadroom 4y ago
  Maybe the state of Oregon is more progressive than NL, but not the other 98% of the US.

belter 4y ago

It is "slightly" upsetting taken into account this was the reason the latest government resigned, and the same prime minister who lied to parliament about it for 6 years...is the head of the new government! Same prime minister also deletes daily his personal official communications :-) "Dutch government resigns over child benefits scandal": https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/jan/15/dutch-government-resigns-over-child-benefits-scandal https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/jan/15/dutch-governme... "Dutch PM has been deleting text messages daily for years"( Dutch): https://www.volkskrant.nl/nieuws-achtergrond/premier-rutte-wiste-jarenlang-iedere-dag-zijn-sms-jes~b47ba005/ https://www.volkskrant.nl/nieuws-achtergrond/premier-rutte-w...

Scarblac 4y ago

The percentage of the Dutch population that is either immigrant, or has at least one immigrant parent is now 25.5%: https://www.cbs.nl/nl-nl/dossier/dossier-asiel-migratie-en-integratie/hoeveel-mensen-met-een-migratieachtergrond-wonen-in-nederland-#:~:text=Op%201%20april%202022%20woonden,procent%20een%20niet%2Dwesterse%20migratieachtergrond https://www.cbs.nl/nl-nl/dossier/dossier-asiel-migratie-en-i.... I don't feel that's still very homogenous.

eldaisfish 4y ago
it is. Nearly 75% of the population is homogenous so your point is moot. The Netherlands is no outlier in this regard and systemic racism is common in most ethnostates - see France for example, where the segment of population with at least one non-ethnically french parent is even higher than in NL. The problem is just as bad if not worse.
- Scarblac 4y ago
  Yes, the problem is bad and needs to be addressed. It sounded like you pointed at the supposed homogeneity of the Netherlands as if it were an excuse.

Tade0 4y ago

I'm not racist, so I genuinely don't know: are eastern Europeans considered a separate race? Because it's sort of a public secret that if you hail from one of those countries which joined the EU in the 21st century, you're going to be looked at with suspicion. I suppose it has something to do with the type of people who went to the Netherlands for work right after that was made much easier, but nevertheless it's there.

rs999gti 4y ago

You have a point. NL was a country of Dutch people. The US was founded as a country built by immigrants.

yunohn 4y ago
> NL was a country of Dutch people. Ah so then NL shouldn’t allow other Europeans in either? Or is this opinion only about non-white people. Either way, the Dutch should’ve thought of that before colonising and enslaving other countries. And then importing slaves to their “Dutch only” land. Quite odd.