3 ms·

I never understand this idea of picking an arbitrary set of language features and saying, “what if your code logic was simple functions and a bunch of if statem

by jamil7 4y ago

I never understand this idea of picking an arbitrary set of language features and saying, “what if your code logic was simple functions and a bunch of if statements”. The complexity won't magically go away, it'll just appear in a different set of problems.

dzonga 4y ago
if this was the case we wouldn't have the problem of AbstractFactory that has plagued the Java ecosystem. if this was the case Golang wouldn't be here seeking to simplify things by not having classes. And having __err__ handling like it does. it's not pretty but it works. I pick on the Java because it's ecosystem is broad. However, the over-engineered complexity that resides there makes you wanna stay away.
- Too 4y ago
  One could also use this example for arguing the other way. AbstractFactory pattern would not be needed if Java had more rich feature set to begin with, in this particular example anonymous functions. (Which I believe it nowadays have). Patterns emerge when the foundation isn’t solid enough by itself to stand on. People needed modularity, DI and callback functions (essential complexity) but since the only way to do that with the language was classes, you had to invent AbstractFactory pattern (accidental complexity).
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
ryanbrunner 4y ago
I think it's helpful to divide complexity into complexity in the business logic / problem you're trying to solve, which cannot be eliminated from a pure technical perspective (you should still try to simplify it through discussions with stakeholders though!), and complexity that isn't necessary to solve the problem. Oftentimes the latter category could be necessary if you were at much higher scale, or if the business evolved in some way, etc., which is where this sort of stuff tends to originate. Just yesterday we were talking at my company about extracting a service in Go, since it's very high scale, very simple, and doesn't change much. On one hand, it's pretty likely we'll need to do that at some point, but on the other, it's not causing any issues right now, so there's not much point in doing it at the moment. Had we gone forward, that would have added complexity for a theoretical concern that may or may not happen in the future.

by jamil7 4y ago

dzonga 4y ago

if this was the case we wouldn't have the problem of AbstractFactory that has plagued the Java ecosystem. if this was the case Golang wouldn't be here seeking to simplify things by not having classes. And having __err__ handling like it does. it's not pretty but it works. I pick on the Java because it's ecosystem is broad. However, the over-engineered complexity that resides there makes you wanna stay away.

Too 4y ago
One could also use this example for arguing the other way. AbstractFactory pattern would not be needed if Java had more rich feature set to begin with, in this particular example anonymous functions. (Which I believe it nowadays have). Patterns emerge when the foundation isn’t solid enough by itself to stand on. People needed modularity, DI and callback functions (essential complexity) but since the only way to do that with the language was classes, you had to invent AbstractFactory pattern (accidental complexity).
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

ryanbrunner 4y ago

I think it's helpful to divide complexity into complexity in the business logic / problem you're trying to solve, which cannot be eliminated from a pure technical perspective (you should still try to simplify it through discussions with stakeholders though!), and complexity that isn't necessary to solve the problem. Oftentimes the latter category could be necessary if you were at much higher scale, or if the business evolved in some way, etc., which is where this sort of stuff tends to originate. Just yesterday we were talking at my company about extracting a service in Go, since it's very high scale, very simple, and doesn't change much. On one hand, it's pretty likely we'll need to do that at some point, but on the other, it's not causing any issues right now, so there's not much point in doing it at the moment. Had we gone forward, that would have added complexity for a theoretical concern that may or may not happen in the future.