5 ms·

Not physically, not politically, not culturally. In what way is Turkey in Europe?

by baisq 4y ago

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
pmontra 4y ago
Plays football and basketball in their European federations. Probably any other sport too. Apart from that I personally think of Turkey as Middle East, Asia.
- skinnymuch 4y ago
  Just look at them. Their skin being 1% darker than Greeks clearly means they aren’t European.
mrtksn 4y ago
Physically due to it's geography(the arbitrary division of Asia/Europe aside, Turkey has a very significant population(over 10 Million people) on its officially European lands), culturally due to it's history(The Ottoman Empire has had its significant chunk in Eastern Europe), Culturally(Turks have quite an European culture despite the Islamic influence. That's what happens when you live for generations in Europe. Do I have to mention that the roots of many European cultures are in Turkey. Have you heard of Hagia Sofia for example?). The Turkish economy and Turkish institutions are deeply integrated with the European ones, that's still true despite the damage the Erdogan caused. It's True that Turks are not much like the Germans or the Dutch but they are like the Greeks, the Spanish and the Hungarians. The camels and the belly dancers are Tourist attractions. Not to be confused with how Turks live.
- baisq 4y ago
  You mention the past. So many things have changed since then. I am Spanish and I take offence at being compared to a Turk. Turkey is a Muslim country that is completely placed in Asia with forced marriage and honour killings. There have been recent talks of bringing back the death penalty[]. Erdogan is the true face of the country despite the whitewashing that had been happening in the recent decades. []https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/turkish-leaders-agree-death-penalty-terrorists-and-child-killers-report https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/turkish-leaders-agree-dea...
  - skinnymuch 4y ago
    So you’re just going full mask off and telling us you’re a bigot? Spain being a major contributor to racism and not always considered white must pain you.
  - mrtksn 4y ago
    Turkey is not a muslim country but a country with majority of its population being muslim. Forced marriages and honour killings are illegal activities in the rural regions that are becoming thing of the past thanks to the active measures taken. Arranged marriages are still common in the rural parts but almost non-existent in the cities. And no, Turkey has no death penalty. Politicians may say that they would re-introduce it when they speak to their extremist voters and they had the political power for a decade to re-introduce but they never did. Do you know why? Because it's an extremely unpopular among the Turks. I think you need a reality check.
  - tsimionescu 4y ago
    The fact that you are a self-admitted bigot (taking offense at being compared to any member of an entire group is the definition of bigotry)doesn't entitle you to change history or geography. Turkey is geographically partly in Europe. Istanbul sits on the historical border between Europe and Asia, and there is a chuck of land west of Istanbul that is Turkish. In fact, there are parts of Turkey on the European mainland that are farther west than much of Ukraine or Moldova. Islam is an important part of the culture of many European countries - Spain in particular has significant historical Muslim influence, especially in your architecture. Several majority-Muslim countries are firmly in Europe - Bosnia and Herzegovina, Albania, North Macedonia. There are significant Muslim minorities in a few other countries - Bulgaria, Cyprus, Montenegro, Georgia. Even in Western Europe, there are significant Muslim minorities in many of the old colonial empires - France, Belgium, Sweden, The Netherlands, UK. Not to mention, Turkey is still a secular country, even if Erdogan seems poised to turn it towards fundamentalism unfortunately.
    - _dain_ 4y ago
      A man could have seen both the Turkish conquest of Constantinople and the Moors being driven out of Spain in the same lifetime; yet you let the Turks take credit for the pre-conquest Hagia Sophia (which they didn't build), while also subordinating Spanish civilization to their Moorish predecessors.
- _dain_ 4y ago
  What an absolutely preposterous comment. >Turkey has a very significant population(over 10 Million people) on its officially European lands), Because of forced population transfers in the 20th century. European Turkey is no more European than the Falklands are Argentine. >The Ottoman Empire has had its significant chunk in Eastern Europe Yes, a loathed, parasitic, alien occupation, which was overthrown at the earliest opportunity. > Do I have to mention that the roots of many European cultures are in Turkey. Have you heard of Hagia Sofia for example? Are you insane? The Hagia Sofia was built by Greeks centuries before the Turks arrived off the steppe. >they are like the Greeks, the Spanish and the Hungarians. The Greeks Spanish and Hungarians would likely regard this comparison as insulting. Lebanon is more European than Turkey is.
  - mrtksn 4y ago
    So? Peace in Europe is something unusual and we were lucky to have it from 1945 to 2022. The history of Europe is a bloodbath and the Turks took part in it. It's one of the reasons why Turkey is a European country, actually. >Are you insane? The Hagia Sofia was built by Greeks centuries before the Turks arrived off the steppe. Notice how the ancient Greek stuff is in Turkey now. Unlike the British, Turks did not move it. That's why I say the ancient European history is in Turkey, that's why Turkey is a European country. Apart for the dominant religion, Everything about Turkey is European. Oh, and the dominant European religion has deep roots in Turkey and I'm not talking just about Hagia Sophia. You should take a long vacation in Turkey. Huge enlightenment awaits you.
    - rurban 4y ago
      > You should take a long vacation in Turkey. Huge enlightenment awaits you. Certainly not for people with a clearname online presence, as you will land in a Turkish jail. Huge enlightenment awaits you there.
- v4dok 4y ago
  Respectfully disagree. The line is not arbitrary. Turkey is the beginning of Asia geographically, culturally and historically. Hagia Sophia is not Turkish-made (obviously).They have an offensive military dogma towards all their neighbors and routinely fail every measure of "democratic" law. Erdogan still represents the majority and the government is in bed with the extreme right party. They invaded Iraq and Syria, they routinely suppress their Kurdish minority. It's not Europe, as much as I wish it was
  - tsimionescu 4y ago
    > They invaded Iraq and Syria So have other NATO countries, so, if anything, I would say this makes them MORE European, not less.
  - skinnymuch 4y ago
    Invading other countries? That’s as European as as you can get besides colonizing as a whole. In bed with hard right wing? Welcome to a lot of Europe. Suppressing minorities that aren’t white? Again. Welcome to Europe. Failing democratic law? Welcome to multiple European countries. You just gave the best endorsement for Turkey to be European. Unless the real truth is simply “not white” (to you).
  - mrtksn 4y ago
    Can you give some arguments instead of statements? For example, maybe you can explain your reasoning why do you think that Turkey is geographically in Asia? Maybe you can explain why do you think that Turkey, the successor of an empire with more than 500+ years in Europe is Asian? A country deeply integrated with Europe is culturally asian? Then we can see if you have a point. There's no use to disagree by just saying something different and give no reasoning. And the "They invaded Iraq and Syria" statement is so ridiculous that I don't see point in arguing over it. If it's not clear, Google the topic and look closely at the dates of the military activities of UK/France/USA in these countries. You should also Google for George Bush and Tony Blair. Check out the British sentiment for Tony Blair's dealings with Bush. Look closely, why the British leftist are still bitter with Tony Blair's affair with George Bush? Look for videos of "Muhammad Saeed al-Sahhaf".
weberer 4y ago
The small chunk of land north-west of Istanbul is considered part of Europe. The rest is Asia.
- skinnymuch 4y ago
  Why are Europe and Asia considered two continents? I wonder if some people would love for Israel to be considered European…but of course not the rest of the area around it…you know why. Wink wink.
  - weberer 4y ago
    >Why are Europe and Asia considered two continents? Because the ancient Greek cartographers thought they were clearly separated, and the convention just stuck. Of course its easier for us to see it differently with satellite imagery.
    - skinnymuch 4y ago
      I was inferring modern racism is why it is nearly embedded into our culture. I don’t think so many people would have issues with Turkey being European if they were paler and Christian.

Not physically, not politically, not culturally. In what way is Turkey in Europe?

by baisq 4y ago

Not physically, not politically, not culturally. In what way is Turkey in Europe?

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

pmontra 4y ago

Plays football and basketball in their European federations. Probably any other sport too. Apart from that I personally think of Turkey as Middle East, Asia.

skinnymuch 4y ago
Just look at them. Their skin being 1% darker than Greeks clearly means they aren’t European.

mrtksn 4y ago

Physically due to it's geography(the arbitrary division of Asia/Europe aside, Turkey has a very significant population(over 10 Million people) on its officially European lands), culturally due to it's history(The Ottoman Empire has had its significant chunk in Eastern Europe), Culturally(Turks have quite an European culture despite the Islamic influence. That's what happens when you live for generations in Europe. Do I have to mention that the roots of many European cultures are in Turkey. Have you heard of Hagia Sofia for example?). The Turkish economy and Turkish institutions are deeply integrated with the European ones, that's still true despite the damage the Erdogan caused. It's True that Turks are not much like the Germans or the Dutch but they are like the Greeks, the Spanish and the Hungarians. The camels and the belly dancers are Tourist attractions. Not to be confused with how Turks live.

baisq 4y ago
You mention the past. So many things have changed since then. I am Spanish and I take offence at being compared to a Turk. Turkey is a Muslim country that is completely placed in Asia with forced marriage and honour killings. There have been recent talks of bringing back the death penalty[]. Erdogan is the true face of the country despite the whitewashing that had been happening in the recent decades. []https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/turkish-leaders-agree-death-penalty-terrorists-and-child-killers-report https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/turkish-leaders-agree-dea...
- skinnymuch 4y ago
  So you’re just going full mask off and telling us you’re a bigot? Spain being a major contributor to racism and not always considered white must pain you.
- mrtksn 4y ago
  Turkey is not a muslim country but a country with majority of its population being muslim. Forced marriages and honour killings are illegal activities in the rural regions that are becoming thing of the past thanks to the active measures taken. Arranged marriages are still common in the rural parts but almost non-existent in the cities. And no, Turkey has no death penalty. Politicians may say that they would re-introduce it when they speak to their extremist voters and they had the political power for a decade to re-introduce but they never did. Do you know why? Because it's an extremely unpopular among the Turks. I think you need a reality check.
- tsimionescu 4y ago
  The fact that you are a self-admitted bigot (taking offense at being compared to any member of an entire group is the definition of bigotry)doesn't entitle you to change history or geography. Turkey is geographically partly in Europe. Istanbul sits on the historical border between Europe and Asia, and there is a chuck of land west of Istanbul that is Turkish. In fact, there are parts of Turkey on the European mainland that are farther west than much of Ukraine or Moldova. Islam is an important part of the culture of many European countries - Spain in particular has significant historical Muslim influence, especially in your architecture. Several majority-Muslim countries are firmly in Europe - Bosnia and Herzegovina, Albania, North Macedonia. There are significant Muslim minorities in a few other countries - Bulgaria, Cyprus, Montenegro, Georgia. Even in Western Europe, there are significant Muslim minorities in many of the old colonial empires - France, Belgium, Sweden, The Netherlands, UK. Not to mention, Turkey is still a secular country, even if Erdogan seems poised to turn it towards fundamentalism unfortunately.
  - _dain_ 4y ago
    A man could have seen both the Turkish conquest of Constantinople and the Moors being driven out of Spain in the same lifetime; yet you let the Turks take credit for the pre-conquest Hagia Sophia (which they didn't build), while also subordinating Spanish civilization to their Moorish predecessors.
_dain_ 4y ago
What an absolutely preposterous comment. >Turkey has a very significant population(over 10 Million people) on its officially European lands), Because of forced population transfers in the 20th century. European Turkey is no more European than the Falklands are Argentine. >The Ottoman Empire has had its significant chunk in Eastern Europe Yes, a loathed, parasitic, alien occupation, which was overthrown at the earliest opportunity. > Do I have to mention that the roots of many European cultures are in Turkey. Have you heard of Hagia Sofia for example? Are you insane? The Hagia Sofia was built by Greeks centuries before the Turks arrived off the steppe. >they are like the Greeks, the Spanish and the Hungarians. The Greeks Spanish and Hungarians would likely regard this comparison as insulting. Lebanon is more European than Turkey is.
- mrtksn 4y ago
  So? Peace in Europe is something unusual and we were lucky to have it from 1945 to 2022. The history of Europe is a bloodbath and the Turks took part in it. It's one of the reasons why Turkey is a European country, actually. >Are you insane? The Hagia Sofia was built by Greeks centuries before the Turks arrived off the steppe. Notice how the ancient Greek stuff is in Turkey now. Unlike the British, Turks did not move it. That's why I say the ancient European history is in Turkey, that's why Turkey is a European country. Apart for the dominant religion, Everything about Turkey is European. Oh, and the dominant European religion has deep roots in Turkey and I'm not talking just about Hagia Sophia. You should take a long vacation in Turkey. Huge enlightenment awaits you.
  - rurban 4y ago
    > You should take a long vacation in Turkey. Huge enlightenment awaits you. Certainly not for people with a clearname online presence, as you will land in a Turkish jail. Huge enlightenment awaits you there.
v4dok 4y ago
Respectfully disagree. The line is not arbitrary. Turkey is the beginning of Asia geographically, culturally and historically. Hagia Sophia is not Turkish-made (obviously).They have an offensive military dogma towards all their neighbors and routinely fail every measure of "democratic" law. Erdogan still represents the majority and the government is in bed with the extreme right party. They invaded Iraq and Syria, they routinely suppress their Kurdish minority. It's not Europe, as much as I wish it was
- tsimionescu 4y ago
  > They invaded Iraq and Syria So have other NATO countries, so, if anything, I would say this makes them MORE European, not less.
- skinnymuch 4y ago
  Invading other countries? That’s as European as as you can get besides colonizing as a whole. In bed with hard right wing? Welcome to a lot of Europe. Suppressing minorities that aren’t white? Again. Welcome to Europe. Failing democratic law? Welcome to multiple European countries. You just gave the best endorsement for Turkey to be European. Unless the real truth is simply “not white” (to you).
- mrtksn 4y ago
  Can you give some arguments instead of statements? For example, maybe you can explain your reasoning why do you think that Turkey is geographically in Asia? Maybe you can explain why do you think that Turkey, the successor of an empire with more than 500+ years in Europe is Asian? A country deeply integrated with Europe is culturally asian? Then we can see if you have a point. There's no use to disagree by just saying something different and give no reasoning. And the "They invaded Iraq and Syria" statement is so ridiculous that I don't see point in arguing over it. If it's not clear, Google the topic and look closely at the dates of the military activities of UK/France/USA in these countries. You should also Google for George Bush and Tony Blair. Check out the British sentiment for Tony Blair's dealings with Bush. Look closely, why the British leftist are still bitter with Tony Blair's affair with George Bush? Look for videos of "Muhammad Saeed al-Sahhaf".

weberer 4y ago

The small chunk of land north-west of Istanbul is considered part of Europe. The rest is Asia.

skinnymuch 4y ago
Why are Europe and Asia considered two continents? I wonder if some people would love for Israel to be considered European…but of course not the rest of the area around it…you know why. Wink wink.
- weberer 4y ago
  >Why are Europe and Asia considered two continents? Because the ancient Greek cartographers thought they were clearly separated, and the convention just stuck. Of course its easier for us to see it differently with satellite imagery.
  - skinnymuch 4y ago
    I was inferring modern racism is why it is nearly embedded into our culture. I don’t think so many people would have issues with Turkey being European if they were paler and Christian.