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>>> Business logic flaws were rare, but when we found one they tended to be epically bad. oh yes ... I always bang on to my junior staff that their job was kn

>>> Business logic flaws were rare, but when we found one they tended to be epically bad. oh yes ... I always bang on to my junior staff that their job was known as "analyst programmer" for a reason. The analyst part matters probably even more than the programmer part. In large companies just discovering what needs to be coded is 90% of the job, (the securely coding it in the constraints of the enterprise the other 90% while the final 90% is marketing your solution internally) Anyway .. yes

zeristor 4y ago
This goes with doing the first 90% of the work, then the second 90% of the work then the last 90% of the work. And engineers multiplying their initial estimate by 3, the project manager then multiplying that by 3 and rounding it up to be ten times more than the initial estimate.
watwut 4y ago
> In large companies just discovering what needs to be coded is 90% of the job Yes, but that is quite massive dysfunction of those companies. Meaning, we can yell at analysts-programmers as much as we want, what really needs to be fixed is the process that makes finding out requirements so ridiculously hard. And yes, I work in one of those companies, it very clearly is dysfunction.
- carlmr 4y ago
  I think this can only change when we, as a society, expect code literacy from every person that finishes high school. I don't mean expert programmers, but at least being able to read basic pseudocode algorithms. It's hard to describe a problem if you don't even understand any language.
  - sicp-enjoyer 4y ago
    The "magic AI" has undone years of coaching management about software expectations.
  - lifeisstillgood 4y ago
    oh hell yes. Software literacy in my book (30,000 words still no end in sight) is literally, literacy. Look I automate almost everything i can see. And where I put effort and focus the software that is a force multiplier for my brain (or a bicycle of the mind if you like). But so often in a large company or normal life, there is a great gulf that the virtual world cannot - yet - cross. ut more and more we shall. One thing that's just silly is I take photos on my iphone of bills and letters. I cannot be arsed to navigate the awful dropbox API but I would like to store them under "insurance" or whatever. Fuck having some AI monster read the bill. so I played with Pythonista and can just run an action after a photo - and it gets moved. It's my solution, not an app. And that's software literacy - where you can, write, not on paper, but on the world.
carlmr 4y ago
>I always bang on to my junior staff that their job was known as "analyst programmer" for a reason. I can't help but think about Tobias Fünke. Especially with you banging on your junior staff.
- OJFord 4y ago
  I suspect it's a British (perhaps commonwealth) colloquialism - 'to bang on [about something]' is to go on and on and on talking about it, with some implication of 'too much' or obsessiveness. (Also, notice it's 'bang on to' the staff, not 'bang on' them. That is, the staff are the indirect object; the thing which is being said - banged on about - is the direct object.)
  - lifeisstillgood 4y ago
    Yes, I bang on to my staff (talk endlessly to them) rather than bang my staff (have sex with them) ... or another colloquialism, to "bang my staff" which is a solitary activity that frankly you can guess from here.
    - carlmr 4y ago
      I'm not sure you watched Arrested Development, but I was thinking about this scene where the character says he sees himself as the world's first analyst and therapist, analrapist for short. He always says things that are non-sexual but have an almost sexual ring to them. And while I did understand the bang on to from context, it was exactly the kind of thing he would be saying. Together with the analyst and programmer, analpro for short, or something of the sort.
      - OJFord 4y ago
        And I explained it because (as a native BrE speaker as I suspected the one you replied to was) it didn't have any such ring to me at all, it read perfectly naturally. (I have seen Arrested Development fwiw. Didn't care for it, but I've seen it.)
- 4y ago
chiefalchemist 4y ago
> ...just discovering what needs to be coded is 90% of the job,... Absolutely. The tech part is relatively easy. Deciding what to build, that's where the friction and magic happens.
lupire 4y ago
Your wording is ambiguous. Are senior staff also analysts? Why or why not?
commandlinefan 4y ago
> discovering what needs to be coded is 90% of the job, But you still have to predict based on a two-sentence description in a JIRA ticket how many "story points" it's going to take with 95% accuracy a dozen times within the span of a single "sprint planning session" every two weeks.
- grvdrm 4y ago
  Oh my god - I hadn’t heard the phrase “story points” in a few weeks and now I will have nightmares tonight!

zeristor 4y ago

This goes with doing the first 90% of the work, then the second 90% of the work then the last 90% of the work. And engineers multiplying their initial estimate by 3, the project manager then multiplying that by 3 and rounding it up to be ten times more than the initial estimate.

watwut 4y ago

> In large companies just discovering what needs to be coded is 90% of the job Yes, but that is quite massive dysfunction of those companies. Meaning, we can yell at analysts-programmers as much as we want, what really needs to be fixed is the process that makes finding out requirements so ridiculously hard. And yes, I work in one of those companies, it very clearly is dysfunction.

carlmr 4y ago
I think this can only change when we, as a society, expect code literacy from every person that finishes high school. I don't mean expert programmers, but at least being able to read basic pseudocode algorithms. It's hard to describe a problem if you don't even understand any language.
- sicp-enjoyer 4y ago
  The "magic AI" has undone years of coaching management about software expectations.
- lifeisstillgood 4y ago
  oh hell yes. Software literacy in my book (30,000 words still no end in sight) is literally, literacy. Look I automate almost everything i can see. And where I put effort and focus the software that is a force multiplier for my brain (or a bicycle of the mind if you like). But so often in a large company or normal life, there is a great gulf that the virtual world cannot - yet - cross. ut more and more we shall. One thing that's just silly is I take photos on my iphone of bills and letters. I cannot be arsed to navigate the awful dropbox API but I would like to store them under "insurance" or whatever. Fuck having some AI monster read the bill. so I played with Pythonista and can just run an action after a photo - and it gets moved. It's my solution, not an app. And that's software literacy - where you can, write, not on paper, but on the world.

carlmr 4y ago

>I always bang on to my junior staff that their job was known as "analyst programmer" for a reason. I can't help but think about Tobias Fünke. Especially with you banging on your junior staff.

OJFord 4y ago
I suspect it's a British (perhaps commonwealth) colloquialism - 'to bang on [about something]' is to go on and on and on talking about it, with some implication of 'too much' or obsessiveness. (Also, notice it's 'bang on to' the staff, not 'bang on' them. That is, the staff are the indirect object; the thing which is being said - banged on about - is the direct object.)
- lifeisstillgood 4y ago
  Yes, I bang on to my staff (talk endlessly to them) rather than bang my staff (have sex with them) ... or another colloquialism, to "bang my staff" which is a solitary activity that frankly you can guess from here.
  - carlmr 4y ago
    I'm not sure you watched Arrested Development, but I was thinking about this scene where the character says he sees himself as the world's first analyst and therapist, analrapist for short. He always says things that are non-sexual but have an almost sexual ring to them. And while I did understand the bang on to from context, it was exactly the kind of thing he would be saying. Together with the analyst and programmer, analpro for short, or something of the sort.
    - OJFord 4y ago
      And I explained it because (as a native BrE speaker as I suspected the one you replied to was) it didn't have any such ring to me at all, it read perfectly naturally. (I have seen Arrested Development fwiw. Didn't care for it, but I've seen it.)
4y ago

chiefalchemist 4y ago

> ...just discovering what needs to be coded is 90% of the job,... Absolutely. The tech part is relatively easy. Deciding what to build, that's where the friction and magic happens.

lupire 4y ago

Your wording is ambiguous. Are senior staff also analysts? Why or why not?

commandlinefan 4y ago

> discovering what needs to be coded is 90% of the job, But you still have to predict based on a two-sentence description in a JIRA ticket how many "story points" it's going to take with 95% accuracy a dozen times within the span of a single "sprint planning session" every two weeks.

grvdrm 4y ago
Oh my god - I hadn’t heard the phrase “story points” in a few weeks and now I will have nightmares tonight!