3 ms·

There is a difference between pushing you kids to try things to see what they like, and pushing you kids to keep doing something when they've tried it and told

by shkkmo 4y ago

There is a difference between pushing you kids to try things to see what they like, and pushing you kids to keep doing something when they've tried it and told you they want to stop.

bobthepanda 4y ago
also, I feel like piano and violin are the very classic choices for parents picking out music education for their kids, when there is so much more than that to the world of music. I absolutely hated every single moment of piano and never really got good at it. It was a different story once I got selected for a chorus in school.
- ludston 4y ago
  It's quite possible that the musical skills you picked up from your piano lessons are reason why you had the "talent" to picked for your schools chorus.
  - bobthepanda 4y ago
    Personally, I doubt it. My main struggles with piano were chords, and sightreading. Chords aren't really relevant in vocals since a single person can only sing a single note at any given time, and I wasn't great at sightreading then either. And I find breath control a lot easier than trying to anticipate where my hands need to go (as someone with small hands, a lot of pieces were quite difficult)
  - trbleclef 4y ago
    As HN's only? lurking non-swe choral director I'll just pipe in and say that every school should have a chorus that anyone can be in without being "picked", in addition to any auditioned levels. You can learn to sing the same way you can learn any other subject/skill; that is to say it's entry-level.
    - bobthepanda 4y ago
      To clarify, when I say picked I mean that for whatever reason at my high school every incoming freshman was screened for ability and if they were alright they got in. There was a similar screening process for the ability to swim, though it was actually for selecting those who could not and teaching them.
candiodari 4y ago
The problem with this is fear of failure. If kids consider a skill worthwhile, from programming to sport to violin, and they see how good one can be (which can be hard to avoid especially for music) they will get fear of failure. The next thing they'll tell you is they wish to stop. You cannot talk a kid out of fear of failure. I've never made the least bit of headway. You shouldn't let them stop, and even force them to practice long enough (like >15 minutes, I'm not talking hours) that they forget about fear of failure and enjoy the next 15 minutes. Maybe even get them into the situation that there's nothing but the violin or some puzzle in code they don't understand for 5 minutes or so. Sport is good for this. If they do Judo and there is a duel, that's 2 minutes they will be focusing on the opponent. Somehow people don't easily get tired of this, and of course they focus. It's all a balance. Should you let them struggle or give them answers directly? Should you give them opponents that are easy or hard ? Too easy? Too hard? Should you practice very directly or let them choose direction (they inevitably choose unattainable targets, so it's not as easy as you're thinking, but you may be able to guide them to a reasonable choice). Should you push them, maybe even "punish" them (take away cell phone for example)? I've known my kids to literally ask for that (taking away cell phone until they've completed homework or some practice). And everything works like those opponents in Judo. The more they fight, the harder and stronger the opponent can be while they still learn. At 10 some can take "normal" adults and at 13-14 or so some kids are very liable to win against adults double their weight. But even "meta" this works. The more you push them, the harder you can push them without negative consequences and you should build this up over time. It's all a balance. In every one of those questions there is a horrible answer that goes way too far ... on both sides of the equation. There is way too much practice and there is way to little practice, and it's even different per kid, when they're ill or feeling well, and how old they get. Otoh, as long as you're somewhere in the middle, it doesn't matter as much as you'd think where exactly you are in the middle. And you can pick one or two, but no more, where you have a slightly more extreme choice.

by shkkmo 4y ago

There is a difference between pushing you kids to try things to see what they like, and pushing you kids to keep doing something when they've tried it and told you they want to stop.

bobthepanda 4y ago

also, I feel like piano and violin are the very classic choices for parents picking out music education for their kids, when there is so much more than that to the world of music. I absolutely hated every single moment of piano and never really got good at it. It was a different story once I got selected for a chorus in school.

ludston 4y ago
It's quite possible that the musical skills you picked up from your piano lessons are reason why you had the "talent" to picked for your schools chorus.
- bobthepanda 4y ago
  Personally, I doubt it. My main struggles with piano were chords, and sightreading. Chords aren't really relevant in vocals since a single person can only sing a single note at any given time, and I wasn't great at sightreading then either. And I find breath control a lot easier than trying to anticipate where my hands need to go (as someone with small hands, a lot of pieces were quite difficult)
- trbleclef 4y ago
  As HN's only? lurking non-swe choral director I'll just pipe in and say that every school should have a chorus that anyone can be in without being "picked", in addition to any auditioned levels. You can learn to sing the same way you can learn any other subject/skill; that is to say it's entry-level.
  - bobthepanda 4y ago
    To clarify, when I say picked I mean that for whatever reason at my high school every incoming freshman was screened for ability and if they were alright they got in. There was a similar screening process for the ability to swim, though it was actually for selecting those who could not and teaching them.

candiodari 4y ago

The problem with this is fear of failure. If kids consider a skill worthwhile, from programming to sport to violin, and they see how good one can be (which can be hard to avoid especially for music) they will get fear of failure. The next thing they'll tell you is they wish to stop. You cannot talk a kid out of fear of failure. I've never made the least bit of headway. You shouldn't let them stop, and even force them to practice long enough (like >15 minutes, I'm not talking hours) that they forget about fear of failure and enjoy the next 15 minutes. Maybe even get them into the situation that there's nothing but the violin or some puzzle in code they don't understand for 5 minutes or so. Sport is good for this. If they do Judo and there is a duel, that's 2 minutes they will be focusing on the opponent. Somehow people don't easily get tired of this, and of course they focus. It's all a balance. Should you let them struggle or give them answers directly? Should you give them opponents that are easy or hard ? Too easy? Too hard? Should you practice very directly or let them choose direction (they inevitably choose unattainable targets, so it's not as easy as you're thinking, but you may be able to guide them to a reasonable choice). Should you push them, maybe even "punish" them (take away cell phone for example)? I've known my kids to literally ask for that (taking away cell phone until they've completed homework or some practice). And everything works like those opponents in Judo. The more they fight, the harder and stronger the opponent can be while they still learn. At 10 some can take "normal" adults and at 13-14 or so some kids are very liable to win against adults double their weight. But even "meta" this works. The more you push them, the harder you can push them without negative consequences and you should build this up over time. It's all a balance. In every one of those questions there is a horrible answer that goes way too far ... on both sides of the equation. There is way too much practice and there is way to little practice, and it's even different per kid, when they're ill or feeling well, and how old they get. Otoh, as long as you're somewhere in the middle, it doesn't matter as much as you'd think where exactly you are in the middle. And you can pick one or two, but no more, where you have a slightly more extreme choice.