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I have learned that some Americans consider it crucial to arm themselves in case there is a tyrannical government in the future. This seems nuts to almost every

by Gatsky 4y ago

I have learned that some Americans consider it crucial to arm themselves in case there is a tyrannical government in the future. This seems nuts to almost everyone else in a first world country, and probably many other Americans. But these people, who are not in fact nuts or cretinous, actually believe this and consider it of paramount importance. In one sense, the point can't be argued. My view: If the US population really wants to do something school shootings in the near term, then the physical layout of schools should be changed so that someone can't just walk in and shoot children. Does this make school look and feel like a dystopian prison? Yes. But that's the price of freedom, which probably shouldn't be born by dead primary school children. This strikes me as the only politically feasible solution right now. Gun regulation seems likely to help and is a fairly logical solution, but too many people seem allergic to it, and there are already so many unregistered firearms out there. While we are dreaming, reshaping society so everyone is kinder and less likely to shoot each other is also likely to help.

maccolgan 4y ago
>tyrannical government in the future. This seems nuts to almost everyone else in a first world country You don't live in a tyrannical government?
hikingsimulator 4y ago
- ekam 4y ago
  - hikingsimulator 4y ago
    Your retort is just an obfuscated what-aboutism. A cursory glance at incarceration rates, deficit in access to healthcare, education, etc. enforced by supposedly colorblind legislation, the whole defended by a police that has roots in labor repression and racial policing does not help your position. If the USofA really are one of the least racist countries on earth, it is more a damning condemnation of the world than a glowing review of this country.
    - newfriend 4y ago
      - hikingsimulator 4y ago
        newfriend 4y ago
  - spicymaki 4y ago
- pjc50 4y ago
  It was remarkable how quickly California enacted gun control after the Black Panthers appeared.
numpad0 4y ago
> I have learned that some Americans consider it crucial to arm themselves in case there is a tyrannical government in the future. This seems nuts to almost everyone else in a first world country Yet they continue to absolutely dominate the world, culturally and economically. Can't rule out the possibility entirely that we are nuts and they are not.
- foxyv 4y ago
  Please note that a lot of that dominance comes from a privileged position of being the only developed country in the world that wasn't devastated by endless strategic bombing during World War II. This led to the dollar becoming the reserve currency for the world, turbocharging its industry, and securing advantageous trade deals. In addition it is surrounded by allies, allowing it to safely engage in wars abroad to project economic power. The US is struggling to keep this lead and will probably have difficulty maintaining it for another 10-20 years. That is, unless Asia and Europe decide to have another stupid war for some awfully stupid reason. Even then, it is unlikely the US would remain unscathed in such a case. The culture of the US is often touted as its primary reason for success, but there is a great deal of doubt about this.
mmcgaha 4y ago
> I have learned that some Americans consider it crucial to arm themselves in case there is a tyrannical government in the future. OK but you realize that some in this case is a small percentage. Most people just want to defend their homes from intruders, defend their property from animals, hunt a few days a year, plink on the weekends, or just don't want to turn in the cherished firearm that was passed down in the family.
- Gatsky 4y ago
  I really don't know what most people want, but the armed civilian militia reason is espoused by multiple commenters on HN, so I assume it isn't that much of a fringe opinion. None of the reasons you list require automatic or semi-automatic rifles or eg. the arsenal the Las Vegas hotel shooter was carrying. I guess it is possible that the reasons people actually want guns, and the reasons people say they must have guns may be different.
foxyv 4y ago
Schools are already pretty buttoned up. But you would be hard pressed to secure them to the point where a shooter couldn't just blow away the first guard and walk right in. Similar to the grocery store shooting. Even prisons need huge sally ports and clear zones to prevent stuff like ram raids and car bombs. Securing EVERY school this way would be nearly impossible. Especially since we can barely staff them in the first place. The terrorist always has the advantage of picking the least fortified target. In addition they have the drop on the defenders. So unless we have teams of armed and armored QRF guards in ready rooms and a single entry gate at EVERY school we're still going to be vulnerable. Then, even after we secure every school, the terrorist just waits at the first bus stop, walks on the opening doors, and then kills a busload of kids. https://miami.cbslocal.com/2012/12/20/teen-school-bus-shooting-suspect-expected-to-be-tried-as-adult/ https://miami.cbslocal.com/2012/12/20/teen-school-bus-shooti... If we couldn't stop it in Iraq and Afghanistan with trillions of dollars of military hardware and surveillance, I don't seeing domestic terrorism being much easier. Especially with the prevalence of firearms and explosives in the United States.
- Gatsky 4y ago
  You make good points, it would be difficult and expensive. An armed single entry gate was what I had in mind. But it wouldn't be completely useless or even harmful, like arming teachers would be. It's also true that the shooter could just go the mall or a cinema and get a similar result. Attacking the school does seem to have a particular significance however.
simon1ltd 4y ago
Gun registration wouldn’t have done anything to stop this shooting. A legal adult with no criminal record purchased the guns in advance of his rampage. A waiting period wouldn’t have worked, and his registration would have gone through because he hadn’t done anything yet.

by Gatsky 4y ago

maccolgan 4y ago

>tyrannical government in the future. This seems nuts to almost everyone else in a first world country You don't live in a tyrannical government?

hikingsimulator 4y ago

ekam 4y ago
- hikingsimulator 4y ago
  Your retort is just an obfuscated what-aboutism. A cursory glance at incarceration rates, deficit in access to healthcare, education, etc. enforced by supposedly colorblind legislation, the whole defended by a police that has roots in labor repression and racial policing does not help your position. If the USofA really are one of the least racist countries on earth, it is more a damning condemnation of the world than a glowing review of this country.
  - newfriend 4y ago
    - hikingsimulator 4y ago
      - newfriend 4y ago
- spicymaki 4y ago
pjc50 4y ago
It was remarkable how quickly California enacted gun control after the Black Panthers appeared.

numpad0 4y ago

> I have learned that some Americans consider it crucial to arm themselves in case there is a tyrannical government in the future. This seems nuts to almost everyone else in a first world country Yet they continue to absolutely dominate the world, culturally and economically. Can't rule out the possibility entirely that we are nuts and they are not.

foxyv 4y ago
Please note that a lot of that dominance comes from a privileged position of being the only developed country in the world that wasn't devastated by endless strategic bombing during World War II. This led to the dollar becoming the reserve currency for the world, turbocharging its industry, and securing advantageous trade deals. In addition it is surrounded by allies, allowing it to safely engage in wars abroad to project economic power. The US is struggling to keep this lead and will probably have difficulty maintaining it for another 10-20 years. That is, unless Asia and Europe decide to have another stupid war for some awfully stupid reason. Even then, it is unlikely the US would remain unscathed in such a case. The culture of the US is often touted as its primary reason for success, but there is a great deal of doubt about this.

mmcgaha 4y ago

> I have learned that some Americans consider it crucial to arm themselves in case there is a tyrannical government in the future. OK but you realize that some in this case is a small percentage. Most people just want to defend their homes from intruders, defend their property from animals, hunt a few days a year, plink on the weekends, or just don't want to turn in the cherished firearm that was passed down in the family.

Gatsky 4y ago
I really don't know what most people want, but the armed civilian militia reason is espoused by multiple commenters on HN, so I assume it isn't that much of a fringe opinion. None of the reasons you list require automatic or semi-automatic rifles or eg. the arsenal the Las Vegas hotel shooter was carrying. I guess it is possible that the reasons people actually want guns, and the reasons people say they must have guns may be different.

foxyv 4y ago

Schools are already pretty buttoned up. But you would be hard pressed to secure them to the point where a shooter couldn't just blow away the first guard and walk right in. Similar to the grocery store shooting. Even prisons need huge sally ports and clear zones to prevent stuff like ram raids and car bombs. Securing EVERY school this way would be nearly impossible. Especially since we can barely staff them in the first place. The terrorist always has the advantage of picking the least fortified target. In addition they have the drop on the defenders. So unless we have teams of armed and armored QRF guards in ready rooms and a single entry gate at EVERY school we're still going to be vulnerable. Then, even after we secure every school, the terrorist just waits at the first bus stop, walks on the opening doors, and then kills a busload of kids. https://miami.cbslocal.com/2012/12/20/teen-school-bus-shooting-suspect-expected-to-be-tried-as-adult/ https://miami.cbslocal.com/2012/12/20/teen-school-bus-shooti... If we couldn't stop it in Iraq and Afghanistan with trillions of dollars of military hardware and surveillance, I don't seeing domestic terrorism being much easier. Especially with the prevalence of firearms and explosives in the United States.

Gatsky 4y ago
You make good points, it would be difficult and expensive. An armed single entry gate was what I had in mind. But it wouldn't be completely useless or even harmful, like arming teachers would be. It's also true that the shooter could just go the mall or a cinema and get a similar result. Attacking the school does seem to have a particular significance however.

simon1ltd 4y ago

Gun registration wouldn’t have done anything to stop this shooting. A legal adult with no criminal record purchased the guns in advance of his rampage. A waiting period wouldn’t have worked, and his registration would have gone through because he hadn’t done anything yet.