5 ms·

Clarification: I‘m talking about self-actualization & leisure time here, not chores. > What is a healthy amount of pushing vs too much? There is no healthy am

by manmal 4y ago

Clarification: I‘m talking about self-actualization & leisure time here, not chores. > What is a healthy amount of pushing vs too much? There is no healthy amount of pushing, period. If you stop applying pressure, children will find their own thing, and that’s the best outcome for them. Just make sure they know the possibilities of what they could do. What would you have liked to do instead of learning piano? Did you need pressure from your parents to have those ideas? I asked my parents for a keyboard. My mother said that I‘d need to learn piano first - so I agreed to take lessons instead. 8 years later, I gave up on piano lessons, with no keyboard in sight. Haven’t touched the piano since. I wonder what would’ve happened if they had just bought me that cheap keyboard instead.

obiefernandez 4y ago
I wish my parents had pushed me to practice piano. They subjected me to lessons for almost 2 years, and I didn't mind (although the 30 minute drive each way to the teacher's house sucked.) However, between lessons instead of practicing I would just fck off and improvise and try to teach myself popular songs instead of actually practicing, and I'm not talking about hours each day either, maybe more like a few minutes. Which meant it was all a collossal waste of time and money. Parents sometimes need to push their kids.
- beardyw 4y ago
  Same story here. The piano teacher refused to teach me in the end. That said, as a result I can busk a bit, and have come to realise that physical tasks to be done in a repeatable way are outside my ability. So the world has not lost a great pianist.
- bigmealbigmeal 4y ago
  "I would just fck off and improvise and try to teach myself popular songs instead of actually practicing" I did the exact same thing, except now I'm a skilled keyboardist (and multi-instrumentalist) who gets paid for gigs. I still spend most of my time fucking around and improvising. Every bit of theory I discovered through fucking around and just exploring freely. I never do scales: I just pick a key and start improvising. If my parents had pushed me to 'actually practice', I would have rebelled and quit altogether. They did for a couple of years. And I did quit. Fortunately, I found my way back to it, on my own terms, because I simply loved playing instruments -- but I loved doing it on my own terms, not someone else's. The frank truth is that some people really like playing instruments, and some are just 'meh' about it. Those who have a tendency to enjoy playing an instrument just need to have access to one -- and then they'll find their way. On the other hand, if a child is 'meh' about an instrument, is it really worth punishing and forcing them through all of it? What's the goddamn point? Isn't life to be enjoyed? Is it really just a series of skills to stoically master?
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- nasmorn 4y ago
  Our daughters both play instruments and they only get to choose each semester how much teaching they want to do or if they want to play in orchestras or ensembles. But once they choose so they cannot stop practicing for their ensemble concert. Interestingly while there is a lot of friction involved to get them to practice at times they are always very proud and happy for their performance and want to do it again. The most draconian measure we apply is not letting them use electronic media.
jay_kyburz 4y ago
I have a 10 and an 8 year old, and I don't agree that kids will find their own thing. I have to apply a fair amount of pressure to get 20 minutes of reading homework on school nights. I even have to apply some pressure to get them to put their laundry in the basket and put their clean clothes away. There are heaps of things that just aren't that fun but that are actually important.
- beebmam 4y ago
  As long as you keep your kids away from addictive things, like social media, cell phones, heavily processed foods, drugs, sex, etc, they'll probably figure things out all right. But it seems easier than ever to fall into cycles of addiction in this era, no matter where you live on earth. So I'd say pushing kids away from those things is necessary. Beyond that, I'm not so sure.
  - bscphil 4y ago
    Yeah, I think this gets at something important. If the options are homework, reading a book, building something, or playing Fortnight, 90% of kids are going to pick the video game. If most of the time they only have the first three options, finding a better balance is going to be easier. Forcing children to do one particular thing (above and beyond what is required to survive in this cruel world) is probably bad. Making sure the options they have to choose from are healthy, non-addictive, and engaging is probably necessary, though.
    - manmal 4y ago
      It’s pretty complicated, because from a certain age they might spend time with friends who exclusively play Fortnite, and talk about nothing else. Additionally, if we just limit screen time too much, that might lead to a feeling of scarcity, and overindulgence when the chance presents itself.
      - vanilla_nut 4y ago
        Worth noting that in car-dependent hellish suburban and rural America, video games may be the only way kids can socialize on an average weeknight, especially if they aren’t interested in sports. It’s tricky to let your kids socialize but also keep them away from toxic platforms like TikTok, Facebook, Instagram, etc.
irrational 4y ago
That's not true. I never pushed my kids and now that they are adults they are angry with my for not pushing them. For example, "Why didn't you make us play sports?" Well, if you had told me you wanted to play sports I would have supported you, but you never said anything. It turns out that kids don't really know have the maturity to do things unless pushed or encouraged by parents. Who knew?
- sosborn 4y ago
  Is it that they weren’t pushed to do sports, or is it that they were never given the opportunity to try it? IMO, my role as a parent is to expose my kids to as many things as I can. If the like it, I give them more, if they don’t, then we move on to something else.
  - gwd 4y ago
    > Is it that they weren’t pushed to do sports, or is it that they were never given the opportunity to try it? I think ultimately the problem is that the child has the first-hand knowledge of their own experience, but not the mature perspective of age; and the adult has the mature perspective of age, but not the first-hand knowledge of the child's experience. I have a toddler. Sometimes he knows he's tired needs to sleep; sometimes he needs to sleep but he refuses to accept that; sometimes he knows that he's not tired and won't be able to sleep. I know that he often gets tired around a certain time, and that he often refuses to accept that he actually needs sleep. So sometimes when he refuses sleep, I insist, and then he conks out immediately. I was right: my greater perspective as an adult was more accurate his immediate experience of wanting to stay awake. But sometimes when he refuses to sleep, and I insist, he spends the next two hours tossing & turning and not being able to sleep. He was right: his personal experience of not being at all tired outweighed my greater perspective as a parent that he's normally tired at the time. Neither one of us has enough information to make an informed decision on our own. I think something similar happens with children. Children don't really know the potential reward of putting up with the grind of practicing for years, or the regret as an adult of missing out on those skills. But if it's excruciatingly painful, they certainly know it. Adults know the potential reward of putting in the time, but they don't know the child's experience. So, when a child balks, is it because they're just facing the normal barrier of effort that everyone faces? Or are they really experiencing something excruciatingly painful? If it's the first and you push them, they'll be glad in the end. If it's the first and you don't push them, they'll regret it. If it's the second and you push them, they'll be resentful; if it's the second and you don't push them, everyone will be happier. Neither the child nor the parents actually has all the information required to make an accurate decision.
vnorilo 4y ago
Some amount of external pressure may help you try something that's slightly difficult and not the most obvious instant gratification available. The main thing is to not chase some dumb good-parenting metric but to give your kid suitable obstacles so she can experience overcoming them and feel success and gain self-confidence. That's what parenting is all about: the little push that helps kids reach their potential. Easier said than done of course. I agree though that if that does not stay in the fun zone, the outcome will most likely be bad. Especially if there is some vicarious competition in the parent's head.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
khazhoux 4y ago
> There is no healthy amount of pushing, period. Surprised to read this. There have been many well-documented cases of children not wanting to learn math, science, history, etc, or go outside for exercise, where the parents denied their children’s agency and forced them to do so. Long-term studies indicate a tendency towards positive outcomes.
- manmal 4y ago
  I would be interested in those studies, if you can point me to them (article name would suffice). It would be great if those studies not only included outcome scores (force a child to learn math and they will improve in math, duh), but also anxiety scores and other wellbeing parameters.
- cycomanic 4y ago
  Can you link to these studies, I'm genuinely interested.
kelnos 4y ago
I wish my parents had pushed me more sometimes. Piano is one of those things; I quit after a year and a half or so, and my parents let me without pushing me to try harder to stick with it. Now, as an adult, over 30 years later, I really wish I'd kept taking lessons as a kid.
JohnWhigham 4y ago
Children left to their own devices nowadays would just endlessly scroll Tiktok. They don't have the mental capacity to stop otherwise.

by manmal 4y ago

obiefernandez 4y ago

I wish my parents had pushed me to practice piano. They subjected me to lessons for almost 2 years, and I didn't mind (although the 30 minute drive each way to the teacher's house sucked.) However, between lessons instead of practicing I would just fck off and improvise and try to teach myself popular songs instead of actually practicing, and I'm not talking about hours each day either, maybe more like a few minutes. Which meant it was all a collossal waste of time and money. Parents sometimes need to push their kids.

beardyw 4y ago
Same story here. The piano teacher refused to teach me in the end. That said, as a result I can busk a bit, and have come to realise that physical tasks to be done in a repeatable way are outside my ability. So the world has not lost a great pianist.
bigmealbigmeal 4y ago
"I would just fck off and improvise and try to teach myself popular songs instead of actually practicing" I did the exact same thing, except now I'm a skilled keyboardist (and multi-instrumentalist) who gets paid for gigs. I still spend most of my time fucking around and improvising. Every bit of theory I discovered through fucking around and just exploring freely. I never do scales: I just pick a key and start improvising. If my parents had pushed me to 'actually practice', I would have rebelled and quit altogether. They did for a couple of years. And I did quit. Fortunately, I found my way back to it, on my own terms, because I simply loved playing instruments -- but I loved doing it on my own terms, not someone else's. The frank truth is that some people really like playing instruments, and some are just 'meh' about it. Those who have a tendency to enjoy playing an instrument just need to have access to one -- and then they'll find their way. On the other hand, if a child is 'meh' about an instrument, is it really worth punishing and forcing them through all of it? What's the goddamn point? Isn't life to be enjoyed? Is it really just a series of skills to stoically master?
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
nasmorn 4y ago
Our daughters both play instruments and they only get to choose each semester how much teaching they want to do or if they want to play in orchestras or ensembles. But once they choose so they cannot stop practicing for their ensemble concert. Interestingly while there is a lot of friction involved to get them to practice at times they are always very proud and happy for their performance and want to do it again. The most draconian measure we apply is not letting them use electronic media.

jay_kyburz 4y ago

I have a 10 and an 8 year old, and I don't agree that kids will find their own thing. I have to apply a fair amount of pressure to get 20 minutes of reading homework on school nights. I even have to apply some pressure to get them to put their laundry in the basket and put their clean clothes away. There are heaps of things that just aren't that fun but that are actually important.

beebmam 4y ago
As long as you keep your kids away from addictive things, like social media, cell phones, heavily processed foods, drugs, sex, etc, they'll probably figure things out all right. But it seems easier than ever to fall into cycles of addiction in this era, no matter where you live on earth. So I'd say pushing kids away from those things is necessary. Beyond that, I'm not so sure.
- bscphil 4y ago
  Yeah, I think this gets at something important. If the options are homework, reading a book, building something, or playing Fortnight, 90% of kids are going to pick the video game. If most of the time they only have the first three options, finding a better balance is going to be easier. Forcing children to do one particular thing (above and beyond what is required to survive in this cruel world) is probably bad. Making sure the options they have to choose from are healthy, non-addictive, and engaging is probably necessary, though.
  - manmal 4y ago
    It’s pretty complicated, because from a certain age they might spend time with friends who exclusively play Fortnite, and talk about nothing else. Additionally, if we just limit screen time too much, that might lead to a feeling of scarcity, and overindulgence when the chance presents itself.
    - vanilla_nut 4y ago
      Worth noting that in car-dependent hellish suburban and rural America, video games may be the only way kids can socialize on an average weeknight, especially if they aren’t interested in sports. It’s tricky to let your kids socialize but also keep them away from toxic platforms like TikTok, Facebook, Instagram, etc.

irrational 4y ago

That's not true. I never pushed my kids and now that they are adults they are angry with my for not pushing them. For example, "Why didn't you make us play sports?" Well, if you had told me you wanted to play sports I would have supported you, but you never said anything. It turns out that kids don't really know have the maturity to do things unless pushed or encouraged by parents. Who knew?

sosborn 4y ago
Is it that they weren’t pushed to do sports, or is it that they were never given the opportunity to try it? IMO, my role as a parent is to expose my kids to as many things as I can. If the like it, I give them more, if they don’t, then we move on to something else.
- gwd 4y ago
  > Is it that they weren’t pushed to do sports, or is it that they were never given the opportunity to try it? I think ultimately the problem is that the child has the first-hand knowledge of their own experience, but not the mature perspective of age; and the adult has the mature perspective of age, but not the first-hand knowledge of the child's experience. I have a toddler. Sometimes he knows he's tired needs to sleep; sometimes he needs to sleep but he refuses to accept that; sometimes he knows that he's not tired and won't be able to sleep. I know that he often gets tired around a certain time, and that he often refuses to accept that he actually needs sleep. So sometimes when he refuses sleep, I insist, and then he conks out immediately. I was right: my greater perspective as an adult was more accurate his immediate experience of wanting to stay awake. But sometimes when he refuses to sleep, and I insist, he spends the next two hours tossing & turning and not being able to sleep. He was right: his personal experience of not being at all tired outweighed my greater perspective as a parent that he's normally tired at the time. Neither one of us has enough information to make an informed decision on our own. I think something similar happens with children. Children don't really know the potential reward of putting up with the grind of practicing for years, or the regret as an adult of missing out on those skills. But if it's excruciatingly painful, they certainly know it. Adults know the potential reward of putting in the time, but they don't know the child's experience. So, when a child balks, is it because they're just facing the normal barrier of effort that everyone faces? Or are they really experiencing something excruciatingly painful? If it's the first and you push them, they'll be glad in the end. If it's the first and you don't push them, they'll regret it. If it's the second and you push them, they'll be resentful; if it's the second and you don't push them, everyone will be happier. Neither the child nor the parents actually has all the information required to make an accurate decision.

vnorilo 4y ago

Some amount of external pressure may help you try something that's slightly difficult and not the most obvious instant gratification available. The main thing is to not chase some dumb good-parenting metric but to give your kid suitable obstacles so she can experience overcoming them and feel success and gain self-confidence. That's what parenting is all about: the little push that helps kids reach their potential. Easier said than done of course. I agree though that if that does not stay in the fun zone, the outcome will most likely be bad. Especially if there is some vicarious competition in the parent's head.

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

khazhoux 4y ago

> There is no healthy amount of pushing, period. Surprised to read this. There have been many well-documented cases of children not wanting to learn math, science, history, etc, or go outside for exercise, where the parents denied their children’s agency and forced them to do so. Long-term studies indicate a tendency towards positive outcomes.

manmal 4y ago
I would be interested in those studies, if you can point me to them (article name would suffice). It would be great if those studies not only included outcome scores (force a child to learn math and they will improve in math, duh), but also anxiety scores and other wellbeing parameters.
cycomanic 4y ago
Can you link to these studies, I'm genuinely interested.

kelnos 4y ago

I wish my parents had pushed me more sometimes. Piano is one of those things; I quit after a year and a half or so, and my parents let me without pushing me to try harder to stick with it. Now, as an adult, over 30 years later, I really wish I'd kept taking lessons as a kid.

JohnWhigham 4y ago

Children left to their own devices nowadays would just endlessly scroll Tiktok. They don't have the mental capacity to stop otherwise.