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As a former gun rights advocate who is now in favor of basically eliminating guns except for hunting… > I think gun owners would be much more receptive to regu

As a former gun rights advocate who is now in favor of basically eliminating guns except for hunting… > I think gun owners would be much more receptive to regulation if they felt people were genuinely trying to separate narrow and effective laws from broad infringements that annoy many and accomplish little. From both positions, I’d favor regulation that explicitly aims to limit gun possession as much as legally possible. The problem with “more gun laws the better” is everyone knows it’s bullshit that accomplishes nothing, no one benefits, and every terrible incentive is incentivized. They should come for the guns and get as many as possible, with as much solid legal theory backing it as they can. They’re never going to convince the fringe, but they’ll convince the vast majority of people who agree with regulation that they mean it and intend to be effective. Anything short of that is political theater.

teakettle42 4y ago
Simply: no. Take a cold hard look at the institutions that fail children so spectacularly that they create mass murderers at a historically unprecedented rate.
- PpEY4fu85hkQpn 4y ago
  What leads you do believe "the institutions" in the USA are are failing children at a substantially higher rate than any other country? And what specifically are you even talking about?
  - teakettle42 4y ago
    We didn’t previously produce mass murderers as at anywhere near this rate. Why are our children so incredibly poorly served by our educational and social institutions, and their families? What has changed? Creating mass murderers is the problem, not guns.
- eyelidlessness 4y ago
  I did, that’s why I changed my mind about guns.
  - teakettle42 4y ago
    You came to believe that guns create mass murderers? Either you never really held a belief in the right to self-defense and are arguing in bad faith (which, frankly, is most likely), or if you did change your mind due to such a ridiculous premise, you never had a coherent argument for gun rights in the first place.
    - eyelidlessness 4y ago
      > You came to believe that guns create mass murderers? I came to believe that the institutions which continue to not just protect widespread proliferation of firearms, but to rally around it as a culture war battle, are the ones failing children. I’m not sure how to engage with the phrasing “create mass murderers”. But those institutions are certainly enabling those who would be. > Either you never really held a belief in the right to self-defense and are arguing in bad faith (which, frankly, is most likely) Oh I still believe in the right to self-defense. And in all honesty I haven’t moved much philosophically on the subject of firearms specifically. But in terms of the practical reality, I just don’t believe we’re going to solve the problem without addressing our gun culture and significantly reducing availability/access. > or if you did change your mind due to such a ridiculous premise, you never had a coherent argument for gun rights in the first place. Oh it was coherent. The shift came at the same time as I shifted away from anarchism towards communism. Can’t really get more coherent than a fundamental question of the role, if any, of the state in dictating what’s permissible. My attitude toward that question has shifted on a great deal of things. Not to serve the ideological shift, but causing it. It hasn’t shifted far, granted.
- bratbag 4y ago
  One of those failing institutions is the one that should be keeping weapons of easy mass-murder out of their hands.
  - teakettle42 4y ago
    We don’t need to control everything to be safe; if anything, that’s a major detriment to our capacity to raise emotionally resilient human beings, and ultimately, makes us all less safe. This kind of institutional thinking is — in part — why we keep raising these broken children in the first place.
glogla 4y ago
According to wikipedia, Mexico, Belgium, Czech Republic, Afghanistan and Somalia have basically the same amount of guns per person. Yet some of these are among the safest countries in the world and in some of these you are very likely to get shot basically any time. Just looking at the number of guns is very shortsighted and makes it sound you're focusing on "punishing sinful people" instead of making reasoned policy decision.
- trzy 4y ago
  Good point. This is a problem with Anglo culture specifically (note the poster who pointed out that Canada’s gun crime per capita closely tracks the US). Anglo culture is not sufficiently developed to support widespread gun ownership and therefore access to guns here must be curtailed.
  - lliamander 4y ago
    I do not think this is an argument you want to make. Following this logic to it's ultimate conclusion is that we should just ban black people in the United States from owning guns, and I suspect neither you nor I want to do something so racist. "Anglo" culture can support it just fine. The U.K. actually had lower violent crime rates before they banned guns. The fact that they felt the need to ban knives in London has very little to do with "Anglo" behavior. Likewise, most places in the U.S.have rates of gun violence comparable to Belgium or Switzerland.
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
    - monkey_monkey 4y ago
      > The fact that they felt the need to ban knives in London Knives (in general) are not banned in London. Some types of knives are outlawed in the UK.
      - lliamander 4y ago

teakettle42 4y ago

Simply: no. Take a cold hard look at the institutions that fail children so spectacularly that they create mass murderers at a historically unprecedented rate.

PpEY4fu85hkQpn 4y ago
What leads you do believe "the institutions" in the USA are are failing children at a substantially higher rate than any other country? And what specifically are you even talking about?
- teakettle42 4y ago
  We didn’t previously produce mass murderers as at anywhere near this rate. Why are our children so incredibly poorly served by our educational and social institutions, and their families? What has changed? Creating mass murderers is the problem, not guns.
eyelidlessness 4y ago
I did, that’s why I changed my mind about guns.
- teakettle42 4y ago
  You came to believe that guns create mass murderers? Either you never really held a belief in the right to self-defense and are arguing in bad faith (which, frankly, is most likely), or if you did change your mind due to such a ridiculous premise, you never had a coherent argument for gun rights in the first place.
  - eyelidlessness 4y ago
    > You came to believe that guns create mass murderers? I came to believe that the institutions which continue to not just protect widespread proliferation of firearms, but to rally around it as a culture war battle, are the ones failing children. I’m not sure how to engage with the phrasing “create mass murderers”. But those institutions are certainly enabling those who would be. > Either you never really held a belief in the right to self-defense and are arguing in bad faith (which, frankly, is most likely) Oh I still believe in the right to self-defense. And in all honesty I haven’t moved much philosophically on the subject of firearms specifically. But in terms of the practical reality, I just don’t believe we’re going to solve the problem without addressing our gun culture and significantly reducing availability/access. > or if you did change your mind due to such a ridiculous premise, you never had a coherent argument for gun rights in the first place. Oh it was coherent. The shift came at the same time as I shifted away from anarchism towards communism. Can’t really get more coherent than a fundamental question of the role, if any, of the state in dictating what’s permissible. My attitude toward that question has shifted on a great deal of things. Not to serve the ideological shift, but causing it. It hasn’t shifted far, granted.
bratbag 4y ago
One of those failing institutions is the one that should be keeping weapons of easy mass-murder out of their hands.
- teakettle42 4y ago
  We don’t need to control everything to be safe; if anything, that’s a major detriment to our capacity to raise emotionally resilient human beings, and ultimately, makes us all less safe. This kind of institutional thinking is — in part — why we keep raising these broken children in the first place.

glogla 4y ago

According to wikipedia, Mexico, Belgium, Czech Republic, Afghanistan and Somalia have basically the same amount of guns per person. Yet some of these are among the safest countries in the world and in some of these you are very likely to get shot basically any time. Just looking at the number of guns is very shortsighted and makes it sound you're focusing on "punishing sinful people" instead of making reasoned policy decision.

trzy 4y ago
Good point. This is a problem with Anglo culture specifically (note the poster who pointed out that Canada’s gun crime per capita closely tracks the US). Anglo culture is not sufficiently developed to support widespread gun ownership and therefore access to guns here must be curtailed.
- lliamander 4y ago
  I do not think this is an argument you want to make. Following this logic to it's ultimate conclusion is that we should just ban black people in the United States from owning guns, and I suspect neither you nor I want to do something so racist. "Anglo" culture can support it just fine. The U.K. actually had lower violent crime rates before they banned guns. The fact that they felt the need to ban knives in London has very little to do with "Anglo" behavior. Likewise, most places in the U.S.have rates of gun violence comparable to Belgium or Switzerland.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - monkey_monkey 4y ago
    > The fact that they felt the need to ban knives in London Knives (in general) are not banned in London. Some types of knives are outlawed in the UK.
    - lliamander 4y ago