4 ms·

Now think how many children suffered the same fate, but we’ll never hear about it because they did not become famous. Reminds me of “dance moms” or “cheer moms

Now think how many children suffered the same fate, but we’ll never hear about it because they did not become famous. Reminds me of “dance moms” or “cheer moms”, “football dads”, etc. If you’re a parent, remember not to live your unfulfilled dreams through your children.

pvorb 4y ago
You mean like trying to get your kid into programming, which is a bit more common around here?
- Freak_NL 4y ago
  There is quite a gap between stimulating children to see if that is something they could enjoy and excel in, and going all overboard and making it the centre of their young lives.
- adlpz 4y ago
  TBH in that case, in HN, it's clearly not the unfulfilled dream bit. More like people see that programming is a dream job for them and want their kids to have the same opportunity.
- spoiler 4y ago
  Trying to share your interest with a kid is not abuse. It's fine even to try multiple times, because children's interests can change throught development. That's very very different from projecting and seeing children as an extension of the parent instead of individuals, which is a form of abuse.
- marto1 4y ago
  Precisely! I always get an eerie feeling seeing threads like "How to get my 4yo into programming?" reach the top of HN.
  - paganel 4y ago
    I've personally chosen to ignore those posts. I say this as a guy who only got into programming when I was 20-21 years of age, and even though at the beginning I felt like an impostor, 20 years after the fact I can say that it was all for the better that my teenager years were spent on stuff that was not related to programming, it gave me (and it still gives me) a much broader perspective on the world.
- kortilla 4y ago
  You’re not living vicariously through your child if they are just doing the same thing you do for a day job.
  - HelloNurse 4y ago
    Not really. Two actors have more roles and more success than one actor, self-realization tends to be additive and never enough.
- aliswe 4y ago
  Hats off to you, this was very interesting.
- emptyfile 4y ago
  Ohh, that hit a nerve apparently.
- gjulianm 4y ago
  I think there's a difference between trying to show your kid something you think they might find interesting, and pushing them into it.
- Dzugaru 4y ago
  My mom was a programmer (in the 90s) and they never thought this is the way to make a living. But they saw my interest in programming and went along with it, taking me to classes and buying a PC. It turned out spectacularly good for me, obviously.
- kelnos 4y ago
  I think it's fine to try to get your child into anything you like. But listen to them. Sometimes pushback is just childlike short-sightedness, but other times it's genuine and should be listened to.
- schwartzworld 4y ago
  Teaching your kid to write computer programs is not the same thing as forcing them into a career as a developer. Whenever I hear people equate the two, I like to remind them that it wasn't that long ago that if you wanted to write a letter, you had to go to someone who knew how to write and dictate. Lots of non-technical jobs require you to sit at a computer all day. Why do you think they teach typing in school now? The ability to automate your tasks is a superpower that I would love my children to have regardless of what they do. I personally have had jobs that could probably be automated by a python script, although what I was doing them at the time I didn't know how python. Besides professional reasons, basic programming skills can be the gateway to any number of hobbies. I build things for myself all the time and because it's a creative thing, and programs can be written to aid in creating artwork music, or even to generate these things completely from the software. Most schools have art and music programs. They may even be a mandatory part of the curriculum. Because we recognize that there are benefits to learning these skills even though the majority of students will not go on to do these things professionally. Programming is the exact same thing.
- dandellion 4y ago
  I don't think it's the same thing. My parents signed me up for English classes when I was very young. They made me go twice a week, even when I was tired of school already. It sucked, some times, but it was just two hours a week and it was far from making me miserable or anything like that. It has actually proved to be an extremely valuable skill in my adult life. It's different to make a kid take piano lessons than to force them to practice every day because you've decided their career should be piano virtuoso. I think it's the same with programming, it can be a very useful skill, and there's nothing wrong with wanting to teach it to your kids as long as you don't force them or make them miserable.
  - zarzavat 4y ago
    I came from a family of musicians and so my parents wanted me to learn an instrument from a young age, and yes they did force me to practice every day. In the end, I learned a skill that has given me a lot of enjoyment in my adult life. Personally, the end was worth the means. Kids spend a lot of time being forced to learn things in school. I didn’t perceive having to practice an instrument each day as worse than having to attend PE class. Are there counter-examples? As a kid in that sphere I met many other kids who were very good at music. I never met any who hated playing music but I did meet many who were not that interested in the classical music they were playing. Many played other kinds of music in their “free time”. I’d say it’s fine to teach your kid to be a piano virtuoso, as long as it’s the piano and not (say) the violin or cello, because cello virtuoso is a non-transferable skill, whereas piano can be transferred to whatever genre they eventually end up liking.
- zarzavat 4y ago
  You should absolutely teach your kid skills, that’s the meaning of education is it not? That’s different from forcing them to work, the difference is the involvement of money.
rbanffy 4y ago
Not to mention the reality shows about beauty pageants. Reality TV is a crime against humanity.
h2odragon 4y ago
When I was 8; I worked with a crew installing mobile homes. I was especially valued for the double wides; I was light enough to work the roofline without denting the roof. At 11 I was operating construction machinery, I had to hide from the inspectors on some jobs but on others I could talk to them. State vs. Federal I think: the State guys could be bribed. At 16 software I had written (bid estimation) was selling for $2k a seat to earthwork contractors all over North America. Anything I got paid went right to the parents to pay off "debts" they considered I owed them. They kept this up until I stopped letting them. At 35, I wanted to marry my wife and start a family, when I told my parents about this they were so happy they'd be getting another slave they started planning all the uses they could put her to in front of me. I realized that this proposed behavior was just as unacceptable applied to me, as it would be to her. My Dad died a few years later, I had to help wind up his businesses, which was eye opening: I was President of one company and Treasurer of another (I'd never agreed to do either job, hadn't been aware of the one company at all). There were emails about how they could hide hundreds of thousands of dollars from me, contemporaneous with times when I had sold belongings and stretched my credit to keep "our" business running. I'm (obviously) still dealing with all that. My child gets told to pursue self determination and never do business with blood relations.
- czottmann 4y ago
  Thanks for sharing, that was a hard read. It sounds like sociopath behaviour to me.

pvorb 4y ago

You mean like trying to get your kid into programming, which is a bit more common around here?

Freak_NL 4y ago
There is quite a gap between stimulating children to see if that is something they could enjoy and excel in, and going all overboard and making it the centre of their young lives.
adlpz 4y ago
TBH in that case, in HN, it's clearly not the unfulfilled dream bit. More like people see that programming is a dream job for them and want their kids to have the same opportunity.
spoiler 4y ago
Trying to share your interest with a kid is not abuse. It's fine even to try multiple times, because children's interests can change throught development. That's very very different from projecting and seeing children as an extension of the parent instead of individuals, which is a form of abuse.
marto1 4y ago
Precisely! I always get an eerie feeling seeing threads like "How to get my 4yo into programming?" reach the top of HN.
- paganel 4y ago
  I've personally chosen to ignore those posts. I say this as a guy who only got into programming when I was 20-21 years of age, and even though at the beginning I felt like an impostor, 20 years after the fact I can say that it was all for the better that my teenager years were spent on stuff that was not related to programming, it gave me (and it still gives me) a much broader perspective on the world.
kortilla 4y ago
You’re not living vicariously through your child if they are just doing the same thing you do for a day job.
- HelloNurse 4y ago
  Not really. Two actors have more roles and more success than one actor, self-realization tends to be additive and never enough.
aliswe 4y ago
Hats off to you, this was very interesting.
emptyfile 4y ago
Ohh, that hit a nerve apparently.
gjulianm 4y ago
I think there's a difference between trying to show your kid something you think they might find interesting, and pushing them into it.
Dzugaru 4y ago
My mom was a programmer (in the 90s) and they never thought this is the way to make a living. But they saw my interest in programming and went along with it, taking me to classes and buying a PC. It turned out spectacularly good for me, obviously.
kelnos 4y ago
I think it's fine to try to get your child into anything you like. But listen to them. Sometimes pushback is just childlike short-sightedness, but other times it's genuine and should be listened to.
schwartzworld 4y ago
Teaching your kid to write computer programs is not the same thing as forcing them into a career as a developer. Whenever I hear people equate the two, I like to remind them that it wasn't that long ago that if you wanted to write a letter, you had to go to someone who knew how to write and dictate. Lots of non-technical jobs require you to sit at a computer all day. Why do you think they teach typing in school now? The ability to automate your tasks is a superpower that I would love my children to have regardless of what they do. I personally have had jobs that could probably be automated by a python script, although what I was doing them at the time I didn't know how python. Besides professional reasons, basic programming skills can be the gateway to any number of hobbies. I build things for myself all the time and because it's a creative thing, and programs can be written to aid in creating artwork music, or even to generate these things completely from the software. Most schools have art and music programs. They may even be a mandatory part of the curriculum. Because we recognize that there are benefits to learning these skills even though the majority of students will not go on to do these things professionally. Programming is the exact same thing.
dandellion 4y ago
I don't think it's the same thing. My parents signed me up for English classes when I was very young. They made me go twice a week, even when I was tired of school already. It sucked, some times, but it was just two hours a week and it was far from making me miserable or anything like that. It has actually proved to be an extremely valuable skill in my adult life. It's different to make a kid take piano lessons than to force them to practice every day because you've decided their career should be piano virtuoso. I think it's the same with programming, it can be a very useful skill, and there's nothing wrong with wanting to teach it to your kids as long as you don't force them or make them miserable.
- zarzavat 4y ago
  I came from a family of musicians and so my parents wanted me to learn an instrument from a young age, and yes they did force me to practice every day. In the end, I learned a skill that has given me a lot of enjoyment in my adult life. Personally, the end was worth the means. Kids spend a lot of time being forced to learn things in school. I didn’t perceive having to practice an instrument each day as worse than having to attend PE class. Are there counter-examples? As a kid in that sphere I met many other kids who were very good at music. I never met any who hated playing music but I did meet many who were not that interested in the classical music they were playing. Many played other kinds of music in their “free time”. I’d say it’s fine to teach your kid to be a piano virtuoso, as long as it’s the piano and not (say) the violin or cello, because cello virtuoso is a non-transferable skill, whereas piano can be transferred to whatever genre they eventually end up liking.
zarzavat 4y ago
You should absolutely teach your kid skills, that’s the meaning of education is it not? That’s different from forcing them to work, the difference is the involvement of money.

rbanffy 4y ago

Not to mention the reality shows about beauty pageants. Reality TV is a crime against humanity.

h2odragon 4y ago

When I was 8; I worked with a crew installing mobile homes. I was especially valued for the double wides; I was light enough to work the roofline without denting the roof. At 11 I was operating construction machinery, I had to hide from the inspectors on some jobs but on others I could talk to them. State vs. Federal I think: the State guys could be bribed. At 16 software I had written (bid estimation) was selling for $2k a seat to earthwork contractors all over North America. Anything I got paid went right to the parents to pay off "debts" they considered I owed them. They kept this up until I stopped letting them. At 35, I wanted to marry my wife and start a family, when I told my parents about this they were so happy they'd be getting another slave they started planning all the uses they could put her to in front of me. I realized that this proposed behavior was just as unacceptable applied to me, as it would be to her. My Dad died a few years later, I had to help wind up his businesses, which was eye opening: I was President of one company and Treasurer of another (I'd never agreed to do either job, hadn't been aware of the one company at all). There were emails about how they could hide hundreds of thousands of dollars from me, contemporaneous with times when I had sold belongings and stretched my credit to keep "our" business running. I'm (obviously) still dealing with all that. My child gets told to pursue self determination and never do business with blood relations.

czottmann 4y ago
Thanks for sharing, that was a hard read. It sounds like sociopath behaviour to me.