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I’m surprised Polestar hasn’t been mentioned. While not mainstream—yet—the PS2 is a great car. We definitely had teething issues (software mostly) with the Laun

I’m surprised Polestar hasn’t been mentioned. While not mainstream—yet—the PS2 is a great car. We definitely had teething issues (software mostly) with the Launch Edition, but Polestar’s Android Automative implementation has got more solid in the last year.

KennyBlanken 4y ago
Polestar and Volvo both have excellent EVs. Audi's e-tron models, ditto. The EQS, same. BMW's i4 and iX just came out, both of which appear to blow Tesla out of the fucking water. Hyundai's Ioniq 5, so far getting rave reviews from owners that match the press. The Ford Mach-E is having a bit of teething issues reportedly (cooling related, I think?) but I see them all over the place. The Ford Lightning has sold out several years worth of production. GM has the Ultium platform in production (Hummer) which will soon serve as the base for a number of models. The Equinox EV is in testing and everyone's guess is that they will sell better than hotcakes unless GM manages to fuck it up. Hopefully they call all the "fuck it up" out of their system with the Bolt. VW right now is trailing the pack. The IQ4 by all accounts was a huge swing and a miss, which is inexcusable coming from one of the world's largest car companies. They tried to "re-imagine" "the car" on a basic level and failed miserably. For example: it automatically turns on/off. No power/start switch. Just get in, use the "gear" selector, and drive. Ditto for stoping. Sounds great, right? Except if you come out of the driver's seat for even a second (as is common when backing up) the car thinks you're "leaving" and almost immediately shuts itself off. Then they had to go and infantilize the climate control system. I wish I were joking when you tap a "I'm cold" button or "I can't see out the windshield" to get things to happen. Apparently VW's IQ team thinks people are absolute imbeciles.
- cobalt 4y ago
  blow tesla out of the water how? also telsas have the same (similar?) keyless/buttonless system as the VW (though it just parks, doesn't shut off the car)
  - bdcravens 4y ago
    Every review of the i4 says that it has the fit and finish that you expect with a BMW. Obviously there are other criteria that matter, like range, etc, that Tesla is still in the lead. However the compromises you may need to make with the a Tesla are becoming less tolerable as you see more options in the market. Tesla's lead will not hold.
    - throwaway894345 4y ago
      I would take those reviews with a big grain of salt; those reviewers are in tight with legacy auto manufacturers (I forget which, but one of the big auto magazines didn't even include Tesla in their rankings for top 2022 EVs). Also, surely "range" is one of the dominating factors in purchasing an EV, right? I'll tolerate some fit and finish issues so long as I don't have to stop to charge every hour (assuming I can even find a charger). I believe other auto manufacturers will eventually catch up, but not until they catch up on range and charging network.
      - gnicholas 4y ago
        > Also, surely "range" is one of the dominating factors in purchasing an EV, right? Definitely true when the range was around 100 or 150 miles. Less true when the range is closer to 300. > I'll tolerate some fit and finish issues so long as I don't have to stop to charge every hour (assuming I can even find a charger). Are there any Tesla competitors that have so little range that they need to be charged every hour?
        throwaway894345 4y ago
        > Definitely true when the range was around 100 or 150 miles. Less true when the range is closer to 300. 300 rated miles is closer to 200 actual miles when you account for cold weather, head winds, and not charging to 100% at each station along the route (usually you only charge to ~60-80%). If you're only driving around town, that's fine, but road trips are going to suck below 300 (visiting family in another state during the holidays?) especially if your charging network sucks (even on Tesla's network there are some butt-clenching stretches). > Are there any Tesla competitors that have so little range that they need to be charged every hour? I'm pretty sure my Model Y needs to be charged every couple of hours of highway driving in the winter (maybe even less? I'm not sure) and its rated for ~320 miles. Based on that, I would guess that some of the 200-250 rated cars are coming in pretty close to charging every hour. Whether it's an hour or an hour and twenty minutes, I'm not interested.
- eptcyka 4y ago
  I'm pretty sure all of those cars are far less efficient in the miles per kwh sense than their tesla counterparts. Which is a shame.
  - zelos 4y ago
    It does look like the Model 3 has a decent lead in efficiency: https://ev-database.uk/compare/efficiency-electric-vehicle-most-efficient#sort:path~type~order=.efficiency~number~asc|range-slider-range:prev~next=0~600|range-slider-towweight:prev~next=0~2500|range-slider-acceleration:prev~next=2~23|range-slider-fastcharge:prev~next=0~1100|range-slider-lease:prev~next=150~2500|range-slider-topspeed:prev~next=60~260|paging:currentPage=0|paging:number=9 https://ev-database.uk/compare/efficiency-electric-vehicle-m...
  - pkulak 4y ago
    Probably not BMW. They actually beat Tesla to market with high-efficiency, switched-reluctance designs (someone please correct me if I'm wrong here, I think that's what the tech is called), and have an uncanny ability to design low coefficients of drag.
- tapoxi 4y ago
  I have an ID4 and I've had a great experience with it. The car only thinks you're leaving if your butt is off the seat and the driver side door is open. With the climate controls, there is a 'smart climate' and a 'classic climate' view. The 'smart climate' options aren't as bad as you suggest either. My only real gripes with it are the laggy infotainment system and meh mobile app.
- throwaway894345 4y ago
  > BMW's i4 and iX just came out, both of which appear to blow Tesla out of the fucking water. In what sense does it blow Tesla out of the water? A Model 3 gets 334 miles of range and it MSRPs at $49K--the most you can get out of BMW seems to be 315 and it costs almost double. > The Ford Lightning has sold out several years worth of production. That only speaks to Ford's marketing. > GM has the Ultium platform in production (Hummer) which will soon serve as the base for a number of models. Personally I'm not keen on a 9klb car. > Just get in, use the "gear" selector, and drive. Tesla has had that for a while now, and it works pretty well. I'm not sure why you'd "come out of the driver's seat" while backing up, but my Tesla doesn't shut off. > Then they had to go and infantilize the climate control system. I wish I were joking when you tap a "I'm cold" button or "I can't see out the windshield" to get things to happen. Apparently VW's IQ team thinks people are absolute imbeciles. Tesla probably beats them for the stupidest climate control system. If anyone in the car wants to adjust their seat heaters, it automatically turns on the heat or A/C, so you have to open up the climate control menu (which automatically turns on heat or A/C), adjust seat heaters, turn off the heat/AC, and then close the menu. Similarly, the defrost buttons always turn the fan up to the max (and you can't turn it back down) and they also turn up either heat or AC to the max as well. So you're getting blasted in the face with either super hot air or super cold air, so in practice you toggle it on until you're uncomfortable, then turn it off, then wait for the windshield to fog up again, and repeat. As if that weren't enough, there's no way to tell it to warm up or cool down, you have to set the exact temperature. So I guess you're supposed to carry a thermostat with you so you know what temperature it is currently, and then you can turn on your climate control and tell Tesla to make it a little warmer or colder.
  - Kirby64 4y ago
    To your point on the Model 3, I think you forgot to unselect the 'including incentives' button on the Model 3. The actual MSRP for the 356 mi (not 334, 334 is with the 19" wheels) Model 3 is $56k. In comparison, the i4 is 55k MSRP for the base one, certain not double the price (at least, at MSRP). That said, I see some things I see as important differences at those MSRP points: * Model 3 has their basic autopilot included in that price. BMW for adaptive cruise features and parking adds another $2400. Also, BMW assistant seems much, much more limited than the Tesla system based on the description. * Model 3 includes their 'premium' audio, that's another $875 from BMW. * Model 3 includes heated seats/steering wheel, lumbar support, etc. That's a $950 add-on from BMW. * BMW offers ventilated front seats, which is not offered by Tesla on the Model 3; that said, it's a $350 option. plus requires the $1.5k leather option as well. * Model 3 is AWD. BMW is RWD only. AWD only comes on the m50 model, which also has lower range (and more expensive by 10k) * Model 3 is much faster (5.4 for BMW, 4.2 for Tesla) * BMW allows 4 different synthetic color choices for free. Model 3 non-black (white) is a $1000. BMW also offers leather colorways for $1500 * BMW offers dash trim options for free. Tesla one is tied to their seat color choice * Fancy headlights are $1000 extra from BMW. Standard with a Tesla * "Drive recorder" is $100 from BMW. Free w/ Tesla Some of those are pretty substantial differences, and may be another $5k on top. That's also not counting any potential dealer markups that might be in place. You can argue about BMW vs Tesla quality, but if you're purely talking feature-set, Tesla seems to be winning handily. That said, there are certain things that may be really important to a BMW buyer (colorways, customization) that just are not offered by Tesla and could be a deal-breaker.
kposehn 4y ago
I'm with you there. The Polestar 2 is an absolutely excellent competitor to the Model 3, along with the Ioniq 5 and EV6. In my testing I found the PS2 to be more fun than the others and vastly more comfortable than a Model 3, but less practical than the Ioniq 5 or EV6 due to using an adapted platform instead of bespoke. That said, if you don't need a ton of range or room the Polestar is a total blast in the dual motor trim! I was seriously tempted by it.
WorldMaker 4y ago
I have wanted to test drive a Polestar 2, but of course you can't just go to any Volvo dealership to do that and the nearest Polestar dealership to me is at least 6 hours away (which seems a bit much for just a test drive). I guess Geely and the Volvo Car Group is hoping to sink the Volvo badge because presumably they have to cross-license with the original Volvo Automotive Group (now entirely focused on trucking)? The Volvo/Polestar switch/split seems goofy/weird and doesn't give a lot of confidence in either brand right now, in addition to over-complicating the dealership networks.

KennyBlanken 4y ago

Polestar and Volvo both have excellent EVs. Audi's e-tron models, ditto. The EQS, same. BMW's i4 and iX just came out, both of which appear to blow Tesla out of the fucking water. Hyundai's Ioniq 5, so far getting rave reviews from owners that match the press. The Ford Mach-E is having a bit of teething issues reportedly (cooling related, I think?) but I see them all over the place. The Ford Lightning has sold out several years worth of production. GM has the Ultium platform in production (Hummer) which will soon serve as the base for a number of models. The Equinox EV is in testing and everyone's guess is that they will sell better than hotcakes unless GM manages to fuck it up. Hopefully they call all the "fuck it up" out of their system with the Bolt. VW right now is trailing the pack. The IQ4 by all accounts was a huge swing and a miss, which is inexcusable coming from one of the world's largest car companies. They tried to "re-imagine" "the car" on a basic level and failed miserably. For example: it automatically turns on/off. No power/start switch. Just get in, use the "gear" selector, and drive. Ditto for stoping. Sounds great, right? Except if you come out of the driver's seat for even a second (as is common when backing up) the car thinks you're "leaving" and almost immediately shuts itself off. Then they had to go and infantilize the climate control system. I wish I were joking when you tap a "I'm cold" button or "I can't see out the windshield" to get things to happen. Apparently VW's IQ team thinks people are absolute imbeciles.

cobalt 4y ago
blow tesla out of the water how? also telsas have the same (similar?) keyless/buttonless system as the VW (though it just parks, doesn't shut off the car)
- bdcravens 4y ago
  Every review of the i4 says that it has the fit and finish that you expect with a BMW. Obviously there are other criteria that matter, like range, etc, that Tesla is still in the lead. However the compromises you may need to make with the a Tesla are becoming less tolerable as you see more options in the market. Tesla's lead will not hold.
  - throwaway894345 4y ago
    I would take those reviews with a big grain of salt; those reviewers are in tight with legacy auto manufacturers (I forget which, but one of the big auto magazines didn't even include Tesla in their rankings for top 2022 EVs). Also, surely "range" is one of the dominating factors in purchasing an EV, right? I'll tolerate some fit and finish issues so long as I don't have to stop to charge every hour (assuming I can even find a charger). I believe other auto manufacturers will eventually catch up, but not until they catch up on range and charging network.
    - gnicholas 4y ago
      > Also, surely "range" is one of the dominating factors in purchasing an EV, right? Definitely true when the range was around 100 or 150 miles. Less true when the range is closer to 300. > I'll tolerate some fit and finish issues so long as I don't have to stop to charge every hour (assuming I can even find a charger). Are there any Tesla competitors that have so little range that they need to be charged every hour?
      - throwaway894345 4y ago
        > Definitely true when the range was around 100 or 150 miles. Less true when the range is closer to 300. 300 rated miles is closer to 200 actual miles when you account for cold weather, head winds, and not charging to 100% at each station along the route (usually you only charge to ~60-80%). If you're only driving around town, that's fine, but road trips are going to suck below 300 (visiting family in another state during the holidays?) especially if your charging network sucks (even on Tesla's network there are some butt-clenching stretches). > Are there any Tesla competitors that have so little range that they need to be charged every hour? I'm pretty sure my Model Y needs to be charged every couple of hours of highway driving in the winter (maybe even less? I'm not sure) and its rated for ~320 miles. Based on that, I would guess that some of the 200-250 rated cars are coming in pretty close to charging every hour. Whether it's an hour or an hour and twenty minutes, I'm not interested.
eptcyka 4y ago
I'm pretty sure all of those cars are far less efficient in the miles per kwh sense than their tesla counterparts. Which is a shame.
- zelos 4y ago
  It does look like the Model 3 has a decent lead in efficiency: https://ev-database.uk/compare/efficiency-electric-vehicle-most-efficient#sort:path~type~order=.efficiency~number~asc|range-slider-range:prev~next=0~600|range-slider-towweight:prev~next=0~2500|range-slider-acceleration:prev~next=2~23|range-slider-fastcharge:prev~next=0~1100|range-slider-lease:prev~next=150~2500|range-slider-topspeed:prev~next=60~260|paging:currentPage=0|paging:number=9 https://ev-database.uk/compare/efficiency-electric-vehicle-m...
- pkulak 4y ago
  Probably not BMW. They actually beat Tesla to market with high-efficiency, switched-reluctance designs (someone please correct me if I'm wrong here, I think that's what the tech is called), and have an uncanny ability to design low coefficients of drag.
tapoxi 4y ago
I have an ID4 and I've had a great experience with it. The car only thinks you're leaving if your butt is off the seat and the driver side door is open. With the climate controls, there is a 'smart climate' and a 'classic climate' view. The 'smart climate' options aren't as bad as you suggest either. My only real gripes with it are the laggy infotainment system and meh mobile app.
throwaway894345 4y ago
> BMW's i4 and iX just came out, both of which appear to blow Tesla out of the fucking water. In what sense does it blow Tesla out of the water? A Model 3 gets 334 miles of range and it MSRPs at $49K--the most you can get out of BMW seems to be 315 and it costs almost double. > The Ford Lightning has sold out several years worth of production. That only speaks to Ford's marketing. > GM has the Ultium platform in production (Hummer) which will soon serve as the base for a number of models. Personally I'm not keen on a 9klb car. > Just get in, use the "gear" selector, and drive. Tesla has had that for a while now, and it works pretty well. I'm not sure why you'd "come out of the driver's seat" while backing up, but my Tesla doesn't shut off. > Then they had to go and infantilize the climate control system. I wish I were joking when you tap a "I'm cold" button or "I can't see out the windshield" to get things to happen. Apparently VW's IQ team thinks people are absolute imbeciles. Tesla probably beats them for the stupidest climate control system. If anyone in the car wants to adjust their seat heaters, it automatically turns on the heat or A/C, so you have to open up the climate control menu (which automatically turns on heat or A/C), adjust seat heaters, turn off the heat/AC, and then close the menu. Similarly, the defrost buttons always turn the fan up to the max (and you can't turn it back down) and they also turn up either heat or AC to the max as well. So you're getting blasted in the face with either super hot air or super cold air, so in practice you toggle it on until you're uncomfortable, then turn it off, then wait for the windshield to fog up again, and repeat. As if that weren't enough, there's no way to tell it to warm up or cool down, you have to set the exact temperature. So I guess you're supposed to carry a thermostat with you so you know what temperature it is currently, and then you can turn on your climate control and tell Tesla to make it a little warmer or colder.
- Kirby64 4y ago
  To your point on the Model 3, I think you forgot to unselect the 'including incentives' button on the Model 3. The actual MSRP for the 356 mi (not 334, 334 is with the 19" wheels) Model 3 is $56k. In comparison, the i4 is 55k MSRP for the base one, certain not double the price (at least, at MSRP). That said, I see some things I see as important differences at those MSRP points: * Model 3 has their basic autopilot included in that price. BMW for adaptive cruise features and parking adds another $2400. Also, BMW assistant seems much, much more limited than the Tesla system based on the description. * Model 3 includes their 'premium' audio, that's another $875 from BMW. * Model 3 includes heated seats/steering wheel, lumbar support, etc. That's a $950 add-on from BMW. * BMW offers ventilated front seats, which is not offered by Tesla on the Model 3; that said, it's a $350 option. plus requires the $1.5k leather option as well. * Model 3 is AWD. BMW is RWD only. AWD only comes on the m50 model, which also has lower range (and more expensive by 10k) * Model 3 is much faster (5.4 for BMW, 4.2 for Tesla) * BMW allows 4 different synthetic color choices for free. Model 3 non-black (white) is a $1000. BMW also offers leather colorways for $1500 * BMW offers dash trim options for free. Tesla one is tied to their seat color choice * Fancy headlights are $1000 extra from BMW. Standard with a Tesla * "Drive recorder" is $100 from BMW. Free w/ Tesla Some of those are pretty substantial differences, and may be another $5k on top. That's also not counting any potential dealer markups that might be in place. You can argue about BMW vs Tesla quality, but if you're purely talking feature-set, Tesla seems to be winning handily. That said, there are certain things that may be really important to a BMW buyer (colorways, customization) that just are not offered by Tesla and could be a deal-breaker.

kposehn 4y ago

I'm with you there. The Polestar 2 is an absolutely excellent competitor to the Model 3, along with the Ioniq 5 and EV6. In my testing I found the PS2 to be more fun than the others and vastly more comfortable than a Model 3, but less practical than the Ioniq 5 or EV6 due to using an adapted platform instead of bespoke. That said, if you don't need a ton of range or room the Polestar is a total blast in the dual motor trim! I was seriously tempted by it.

WorldMaker 4y ago

I have wanted to test drive a Polestar 2, but of course you can't just go to any Volvo dealership to do that and the nearest Polestar dealership to me is at least 6 hours away (which seems a bit much for just a test drive). I guess Geely and the Volvo Car Group is hoping to sink the Volvo badge because presumably they have to cross-license with the original Volvo Automotive Group (now entirely focused on trucking)? The Volvo/Polestar switch/split seems goofy/weird and doesn't give a lot of confidence in either brand right now, in addition to over-complicating the dealership networks.