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The problem is so obviously guns. It boggles my mind that people can ask questions like "what is the solution" and "we need a nuanced discussion" when the US is

The problem is so obviously guns. It boggles my mind that people can ask questions like "what is the solution" and "we need a nuanced discussion" when the US is the only country in the world where schoolchildren get gunned down every other week. It is plainly obvious to any US citizen that has spent a significant amount of time outside the US, that the problem is guns.

Madmallard 4y ago
easy to get guns in other countries that don’t have mass shooting problems
pokeymcsnatch 4y ago
> The problem is so obviously guns The guns haven't changed in 60 years, and in fact regulations have increased across the board on both purchasing and manufacturing. But, let's say it is "so obviously" the guns- how is "what is the solution" some kind of naive or ignorant question? Do you know the solution?
- throw0101a 4y ago
  > The guns haven't changed in 60 years, and in fact regulations have increased across the board on both purchasing and manufacturing. Carry regulations have decreased as evidenced in this animated map: * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Right_to_Carry,_timeline.gif https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Right_to_Carry,_timeline.... * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_concealed_carry_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_concealed_carry_in_... * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concealed_carry_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concealed_carry_in_the_United_... In 1986 there were 16 no-issue states (including Texas(!)); in 2022 there are zero. One unrestricted carry state in 1986, 21 in 2022.
  - maxerickson 4y ago
    The issuance of legal carry permits for concealed weapons isn't really relevant to a discussion about illegal mass violence that is largely carried out with long rifles. Of course overall gun violence is dominated by pistols (but I wouldn't expect the people using pistols to commit illegal violence to be overly worried with carry permits).
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
  - pokeymcsnatch 4y ago
    Carry regulations specifically have loosened. CHL holders are statistically model citizens. They commit significantly less violent crimes than the general public, and significantly less than even trained police officers. Regulations on purchasing have increased drastically over the last 60 years. It's harder to buy a gun now than it ever has been in this country.
- epgui 4y ago
  Guns in the US are fetishized, and the culture around guns is certainly something that can evolve over time even if guns stay largely the same (which they haven't really, but I will grant you this for the sake of argument).
  - pokeymcsnatch 4y ago
    > Guns in the US are fetishized I see this thrown around all the time, right before the term "ammosexual" comes out and right along with the allegations of compensating for dick size. My counter-ancedote is that I haven't seen it, honestly. Guns are a hobby for some people, and I imagine that's been the same forever, right? Maybe a growing hobby, but to call it fetishization dismisses the vast vast majority of people who just like to peacefully enjoy their interests. Also... what's changed with guns in that time frame? I wasn't trying to be dishonest in saying that. Modern ARs don't have any significant difference from the original Armalite model. Same with AK variants. Non-autoloaders haven't changed in well over 100 years.
    - epgui 4y ago
      > My counter-ancedote is that I haven't seen it I don't know your background, but for my part... I live in Canada, in a province that enjoys fishing and hunting (a great part of which is for leisure). Notwithstanding, the fetishization of guns I observe from the US is deeply rooted: it's not so much a sexual thing (though I have no doubt that in some cases it could be) as it is an identity thing. (For an example of how the word "fetish" applies to guns in American culture, see [1] or [2].) Enshrined in the very constitution, it defines what it is to live in America. Politicians go on TV and passionately advance every argument, meritorious or malicious, that they can against gun regulation. Civil discourse around guns lacks nuance and is extremely dogmatic. The loud minority that worships their guns is particularly loud. "Regular people" are obviously more numerous and less noticeable, and my criticism of gun fetishization should not be confounded with denial of their existence or numerical superiority. Still, the overton window in the US seems to be very accommodative to people with more guns than IQ points, and any proposed solutions to try and protect the vulnerable from violence, or ameliorate the situation, are met with outrage. Generously speaking, the US (and the American sense of identity) has seriously struggled to transition from a society that broadly depends on guns to function, into a more specialized and developed society. --- > What's changed with guns in that time frame? Frankly, I don't know enough about gun design and technology to give your question the treatment it deserves or to give a good answer. --- [1] https://www.nature.com/articles/s41599-019-0323-9 https://www.nature.com/articles/s41599-019-0323-9 [2] https://sci-hub.hkvisa.net/10.1007/978-3-319-33723-4_2 https://sci-hub.hkvisa.net/10.1007/978-3-319-33723-4_2
- Bud 4y ago
  Regulations have not "increased across the board". Obviously. We had an assault weapons ban in the US, for a while, under Clinton. It worked. We should still have it. The solution is to ban assault weapons, outright, and then institute strict background checks, without any loopholes. The vast majority of the public supports this. Was that clear enough? Yes, I do know the solution.
  - pokeymcsnatch 4y ago
    There's 0 evidence the 94 ban had any effect. Violent crime was already on a downward tend, and when the ban sunsetted 16 years ago, that downward trend continued until the last 2 years. There's several links just in this comment section that backs that up. "Assault weapon" is a political term with no solid definition. If you mean banning semi-automatic guns, that's at least a meaningful proposal. Again though- this class of weapons have been around and readily accessible for over 100 years. Mass shootings are a modern problem. Why would banning them now be the answer? Until the Orlando shooting, the VT shooting, committed with two handguns and 10 round magazines, was the deadliest in US history. Charles Whitman killed 14 people with a bolt action rifle from the UT bell tower. I'm not saying these disprove your assault weapons ban solution, but it's certainly not as straightforward as you're making it out to be.
loonster 4y ago
The problem is cowardice of those with guns to stop the threat. Instead of risking their lives to save those without protection, they hid and waited for backup. Cowards.
- throw0101a 4y ago
  > The problem is cowardice of those with guns to stop the threat. Instead of risking their lives to save those without protection, they hid and waited for backup. Cowards. Except there was a police officer right outside the building that engaged: > The suspect was immediately engaged outside the building as he approached the school by a Uvalde Independent School District police officer, who was shot by the suspect, the sources said. * https://abcnews.go.com/US/texas-elementary-school-reports-active-shooter-campus/story?id=84940951 https://abcnews.go.com/US/texas-elementary-school-reports-ac... Not the first time even an immediate reaction still didn't prevent deaths and injuries: > Police at the scene engaged him within a minute of the first shots being fired, firing 18 rounds and hitting the gunman several times.[5] The police chief credited the fast response to a heavy police presence with "many, many officers in the park".[18] * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gilroy_Garlic_Festival_shooting https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gilroy_Garlic_Festival_shootin...
  - loonster 4y ago
    It took 90 minutes from the time the shooter arrived to the time he was killed. Every armed man that waited outside is a coward. https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10855093/Furious-father-Texas-school-shooting-victim-slams-police-failing-stop-gunman-HOUR.html https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10855093/Furious-fa...
    - xvector 4y ago
      You can't seriously expect people to put their lives on the line for complete strangers. Far more effective to design a system in which this isn't required.
      - 4y ago
ahallock 4y ago
It's not, though. Something has changed. My father literally used to bring his rifle to school for the target shooting club (not sure the exact name). If you can blame guns, then you can also blame the internet because that's where a lot of these young men spend their time in insolation, amplifying their violent fantasies. You saw that with the Sandy Hook shooter. He put garbage bags over his windows and didn't come out of his room for weeks at a time.
- throw0101a 4y ago
  > My father literally used to bring his rifle to school for the target shooting club (not sure the exact name). 1. What kind of gun? Semi-auto or bolt action? 5.56, 30-30, .22LR? 2. How many guns did each person have? Each household? 3. What was the per capita ownership rate in the US when he was in school? (There are currently more guns than people in the US: 120.50 firearms per 100 people.)
- JKCalhoun 4y ago
  > My father literally used to bring his rifle to school for the target shooting club Was it an AR-15 with a ProMag 65-round drum magazine? Or did he bring in his Glock with several 9mm 40-round magazines? Something has changed in our gun culture, for sure.
innocentoldguy 4y ago
I've lived all over Europe and Asia in countries where guns are illegal and there's plenty of violent crime in those countries. So, what's the problem when someone kills 19 and injures 25 using a backpack full of knives (Japan), drives a truck into a crowd of people celebrating New Year's (Japan), or drives through a parade of old ladies (US)? Do we need knife control? Do we need car control? At what point are we going to start blaming the criminals and not the implement they chose to use to commit their crimes?
- throw0101a 4y ago
  > I've lived all over Europe and Asia in countries where guns are illegal and there's plenty of violent crime in those countries. Do those things happen in those countries on a daily basis? * https://www.gunviolencearchive.org/reports/mass-shooting https://www.gunviolencearchive.org/reports/mass-shooting There were 10 people murdered in Buffalo barely a week ago, and now there's been 22 people murdered. How many 'mass knifings' have occurred in Japan in the last ten days? Were there two? Were there two 'mass drivings' in Japan in the last ten days?
  - innocentoldguy 4y ago
    I’m not sure what myopic cherry-picking adds to the conversation.
- entropy47 4y ago
  > Do we need car control? We have car control. Operating a vehicle requires a licence, training, registry and regular checks. Unlike owning a gun, which is inconceivable to everybody in the rest of the world. Obviously there is criminal intent under all this but guns unequivocally amplify the impact. It's very hard to kill 25 people with a backpack of knives - this isn't a weekly occurrence, like shootings. You can't drive a truck down the corridors of a school. I honestly don't know why we argue about this. Is there anything anybody could say that would change your mind?
- colinmhayes 4y ago
  We have car control. There are stringent licensing requirements and heavy penalties for breaking the rules. That’s all most people are asking for. Obviously this is the criminals fault. Knowing that doesn’t actually solve anything though. People are looking for solutions.
natsup123490 4y ago
I'm a US citizen that has spent a significant amount of time outside of the US. 35 years in the US, and 16 years now in New Zealand. And it's not plainly obvious to me. Bowling for Columbine movie pointed out that Canadians have just as many guns, but much less shootings. I'm in New Zealand. New Zealand has guns. You need to take a class and be approved by the police who interview you and inspect your gun safe. Pistols are much harder to get. More than 10% of people have a gun license. There is almost no culture of using guns for self-defense against other humans. Farmers consider them necessary tools on the farm, hunters use them to hunt food, and DoC workers use them to cull pests (so do farmers). I also feed my dog about one-third of her diet by shooting rabbits and possum. Recently certain semi-automatic weapons were prohibited, but even before that we didn't have school shootings. Sometimes a family household would be slaughtered by a member of that household. Last night in Auckland seven houses were shot up in gang related violence.

Madmallard 4y ago

easy to get guns in other countries that don’t have mass shooting problems

pokeymcsnatch 4y ago

> The problem is so obviously guns The guns haven't changed in 60 years, and in fact regulations have increased across the board on both purchasing and manufacturing. But, let's say it is "so obviously" the guns- how is "what is the solution" some kind of naive or ignorant question? Do you know the solution?

throw0101a 4y ago
> The guns haven't changed in 60 years, and in fact regulations have increased across the board on both purchasing and manufacturing. Carry regulations have decreased as evidenced in this animated map: * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Right_to_Carry,_timeline.gif https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Right_to_Carry,_timeline.... * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_concealed_carry_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_concealed_carry_in_... * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concealed_carry_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concealed_carry_in_the_United_... In 1986 there were 16 no-issue states (including Texas(!)); in 2022 there are zero. One unrestricted carry state in 1986, 21 in 2022.
- maxerickson 4y ago
  The issuance of legal carry permits for concealed weapons isn't really relevant to a discussion about illegal mass violence that is largely carried out with long rifles. Of course overall gun violence is dominated by pistols (but I wouldn't expect the people using pistols to commit illegal violence to be overly worried with carry permits).
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
- pokeymcsnatch 4y ago
  Carry regulations specifically have loosened. CHL holders are statistically model citizens. They commit significantly less violent crimes than the general public, and significantly less than even trained police officers. Regulations on purchasing have increased drastically over the last 60 years. It's harder to buy a gun now than it ever has been in this country.
epgui 4y ago
Guns in the US are fetishized, and the culture around guns is certainly something that can evolve over time even if guns stay largely the same (which they haven't really, but I will grant you this for the sake of argument).
- pokeymcsnatch 4y ago
  > Guns in the US are fetishized I see this thrown around all the time, right before the term "ammosexual" comes out and right along with the allegations of compensating for dick size. My counter-ancedote is that I haven't seen it, honestly. Guns are a hobby for some people, and I imagine that's been the same forever, right? Maybe a growing hobby, but to call it fetishization dismisses the vast vast majority of people who just like to peacefully enjoy their interests. Also... what's changed with guns in that time frame? I wasn't trying to be dishonest in saying that. Modern ARs don't have any significant difference from the original Armalite model. Same with AK variants. Non-autoloaders haven't changed in well over 100 years.
  - epgui 4y ago
    > My counter-ancedote is that I haven't seen it I don't know your background, but for my part... I live in Canada, in a province that enjoys fishing and hunting (a great part of which is for leisure). Notwithstanding, the fetishization of guns I observe from the US is deeply rooted: it's not so much a sexual thing (though I have no doubt that in some cases it could be) as it is an identity thing. (For an example of how the word "fetish" applies to guns in American culture, see [1] or [2].) Enshrined in the very constitution, it defines what it is to live in America. Politicians go on TV and passionately advance every argument, meritorious or malicious, that they can against gun regulation. Civil discourse around guns lacks nuance and is extremely dogmatic. The loud minority that worships their guns is particularly loud. "Regular people" are obviously more numerous and less noticeable, and my criticism of gun fetishization should not be confounded with denial of their existence or numerical superiority. Still, the overton window in the US seems to be very accommodative to people with more guns than IQ points, and any proposed solutions to try and protect the vulnerable from violence, or ameliorate the situation, are met with outrage. Generously speaking, the US (and the American sense of identity) has seriously struggled to transition from a society that broadly depends on guns to function, into a more specialized and developed society. --- > What's changed with guns in that time frame? Frankly, I don't know enough about gun design and technology to give your question the treatment it deserves or to give a good answer. --- [1] https://www.nature.com/articles/s41599-019-0323-9 https://www.nature.com/articles/s41599-019-0323-9 [2] https://sci-hub.hkvisa.net/10.1007/978-3-319-33723-4_2 https://sci-hub.hkvisa.net/10.1007/978-3-319-33723-4_2
Bud 4y ago
Regulations have not "increased across the board". Obviously. We had an assault weapons ban in the US, for a while, under Clinton. It worked. We should still have it. The solution is to ban assault weapons, outright, and then institute strict background checks, without any loopholes. The vast majority of the public supports this. Was that clear enough? Yes, I do know the solution.
- pokeymcsnatch 4y ago
  There's 0 evidence the 94 ban had any effect. Violent crime was already on a downward tend, and when the ban sunsetted 16 years ago, that downward trend continued until the last 2 years. There's several links just in this comment section that backs that up. "Assault weapon" is a political term with no solid definition. If you mean banning semi-automatic guns, that's at least a meaningful proposal. Again though- this class of weapons have been around and readily accessible for over 100 years. Mass shootings are a modern problem. Why would banning them now be the answer? Until the Orlando shooting, the VT shooting, committed with two handguns and 10 round magazines, was the deadliest in US history. Charles Whitman killed 14 people with a bolt action rifle from the UT bell tower. I'm not saying these disprove your assault weapons ban solution, but it's certainly not as straightforward as you're making it out to be.

loonster 4y ago

The problem is cowardice of those with guns to stop the threat. Instead of risking their lives to save those without protection, they hid and waited for backup. Cowards.

throw0101a 4y ago
> The problem is cowardice of those with guns to stop the threat. Instead of risking their lives to save those without protection, they hid and waited for backup. Cowards. Except there was a police officer right outside the building that engaged: > The suspect was immediately engaged outside the building as he approached the school by a Uvalde Independent School District police officer, who was shot by the suspect, the sources said. * https://abcnews.go.com/US/texas-elementary-school-reports-active-shooter-campus/story?id=84940951 https://abcnews.go.com/US/texas-elementary-school-reports-ac... Not the first time even an immediate reaction still didn't prevent deaths and injuries: > Police at the scene engaged him within a minute of the first shots being fired, firing 18 rounds and hitting the gunman several times.[5] The police chief credited the fast response to a heavy police presence with "many, many officers in the park".[18] * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gilroy_Garlic_Festival_shooting https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gilroy_Garlic_Festival_shootin...
- loonster 4y ago
  It took 90 minutes from the time the shooter arrived to the time he was killed. Every armed man that waited outside is a coward. https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10855093/Furious-father-Texas-school-shooting-victim-slams-police-failing-stop-gunman-HOUR.html https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10855093/Furious-fa...
  - xvector 4y ago
    You can't seriously expect people to put their lives on the line for complete strangers. Far more effective to design a system in which this isn't required.
    - 4y ago

ahallock 4y ago

It's not, though. Something has changed. My father literally used to bring his rifle to school for the target shooting club (not sure the exact name). If you can blame guns, then you can also blame the internet because that's where a lot of these young men spend their time in insolation, amplifying their violent fantasies. You saw that with the Sandy Hook shooter. He put garbage bags over his windows and didn't come out of his room for weeks at a time.

throw0101a 4y ago
> My father literally used to bring his rifle to school for the target shooting club (not sure the exact name). 1. What kind of gun? Semi-auto or bolt action? 5.56, 30-30, .22LR? 2. How many guns did each person have? Each household? 3. What was the per capita ownership rate in the US when he was in school? (There are currently more guns than people in the US: 120.50 firearms per 100 people.)
JKCalhoun 4y ago
> My father literally used to bring his rifle to school for the target shooting club Was it an AR-15 with a ProMag 65-round drum magazine? Or did he bring in his Glock with several 9mm 40-round magazines? Something has changed in our gun culture, for sure.

innocentoldguy 4y ago

I've lived all over Europe and Asia in countries where guns are illegal and there's plenty of violent crime in those countries. So, what's the problem when someone kills 19 and injures 25 using a backpack full of knives (Japan), drives a truck into a crowd of people celebrating New Year's (Japan), or drives through a parade of old ladies (US)? Do we need knife control? Do we need car control? At what point are we going to start blaming the criminals and not the implement they chose to use to commit their crimes?

throw0101a 4y ago
> I've lived all over Europe and Asia in countries where guns are illegal and there's plenty of violent crime in those countries. Do those things happen in those countries on a daily basis? * https://www.gunviolencearchive.org/reports/mass-shooting https://www.gunviolencearchive.org/reports/mass-shooting There were 10 people murdered in Buffalo barely a week ago, and now there's been 22 people murdered. How many 'mass knifings' have occurred in Japan in the last ten days? Were there two? Were there two 'mass drivings' in Japan in the last ten days?
- innocentoldguy 4y ago
  I’m not sure what myopic cherry-picking adds to the conversation.
entropy47 4y ago
> Do we need car control? We have car control. Operating a vehicle requires a licence, training, registry and regular checks. Unlike owning a gun, which is inconceivable to everybody in the rest of the world. Obviously there is criminal intent under all this but guns unequivocally amplify the impact. It's very hard to kill 25 people with a backpack of knives - this isn't a weekly occurrence, like shootings. You can't drive a truck down the corridors of a school. I honestly don't know why we argue about this. Is there anything anybody could say that would change your mind?
colinmhayes 4y ago
We have car control. There are stringent licensing requirements and heavy penalties for breaking the rules. That’s all most people are asking for. Obviously this is the criminals fault. Knowing that doesn’t actually solve anything though. People are looking for solutions.

natsup123490 4y ago

I'm a US citizen that has spent a significant amount of time outside of the US. 35 years in the US, and 16 years now in New Zealand. And it's not plainly obvious to me. Bowling for Columbine movie pointed out that Canadians have just as many guns, but much less shootings. I'm in New Zealand. New Zealand has guns. You need to take a class and be approved by the police who interview you and inspect your gun safe. Pistols are much harder to get. More than 10% of people have a gun license. There is almost no culture of using guns for self-defense against other humans. Farmers consider them necessary tools on the farm, hunters use them to hunt food, and DoC workers use them to cull pests (so do farmers). I also feed my dog about one-third of her diet by shooting rabbits and possum. Recently certain semi-automatic weapons were prohibited, but even before that we didn't have school shootings. Sometimes a family household would be slaughtered by a member of that household. Last night in Auckland seven houses were shot up in gang related violence.