5 ms·

Well no one has said it yet and I don’t have a precious study to trot out, but: My >80 year old friend has suggested to me that this kind of problem didn’t exi

Well no one has said it yet and I don’t have a precious study to trot out, but: My >80 year old friend has suggested to me that this kind of problem didn’t exist before we started handing out pharmaceutical drugs of the variety that ‘handle’ mental illness. Sidebar semi-related story time: my wife got her Masters in childhood education and went directly to work for a public high school after. She was a.. I forget, counselor assistant or something like that at a very large school in Texas. She quit after just a few months because she could see that they were just using her position as a funnel to get kids on some kind of pharmaceutical drug. She was literally reprimanded more than once because she recommended against putting some of the students on drugs and pushed them toward professional counseling instead. The parents are often clamoring to get a diagnosis so they can get their kids on drugs to ‘fix’ their problems, so it’s not exclusively the fault of the government, but they’re damn sure doing their part. They’re drugging our children, MOST often unnecessarily. Perhaps if we used other methods to help, we would see other outcomes.

xvector 4y ago
Mental illness, mental healthcare and pharmaceutical treatments are a thing in Europe too. The US is not a special outlier when it comes to bullying and mental health. But you don't see children being gunned down every other week in Europe. The problem is guns.
- ahallock 4y ago
  So guns are what caused this tragedy? The mere existing of them in the US causes people to lose their minds and go on rampages? We need to get to the root of the problem because people will find another way to enact their evil. Look at Boston Marathon incident
  - JKCalhoun 4y ago
    Your reply seems disingenuous. The person you are replying to did not say guns caused the tragedy. Rather the availability of guns in the U.S. is why we see school shootings every week in the U.S. and not in Europe.
    - dontcare007 4y ago
      4000 people were killed due to the threat of box cutters... over 100 people were killed by a fertilizer bomb. People die due to knives, hammers and fists. It's a people problem.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - xvector 4y ago
    Again, Europe has mental illness. But Europe does not have weekly school shootings. It really is not that complicated. Guns enable anyone who becomes mentally ill to kill magnitudes more people.
  - Bud 4y ago
    No. The vast majority will NOT find another way. There's a reason 99.8% of this stuff is done with guns. AR-15s, to be specific, or something very similar. It's because that's what is easy. These people aren't geniuses. If you take the assault weapons away, the vast majority of this will just stop happening. This is a solved issue. We know how to solve it.
    - ahallock 4y ago
      I don't think the Boston bombers or people using trucks to run people over are geniuses. Even the Batman killer was building bombs in his apartment. It's not rocket science. You may reduce the casualties with a ban and confiscation but you still have handguns to deal with. Good luck banning those. And you also have not solved the underlying problem causing these violent ideations in the first place. So I consider that a bandaid, not a solved problem by any definition.
  - throw0101a 4y ago
    > So guns are what caused this tragedy? The mere existing of them in the US causes people to lose their minds and go on rampages? When people in other countries lose their minds they cannot go on rampages as easily because of filters on gun ownership. In fact before people go on rampages they often go to the US first to get guns so their rampages can be more 'effective' where they actually do live: * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020_Nova_Scotia_attacks https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020_Nova_Scotia_attacks
    - tablespoon 4y ago
      > When people in other countries lose their minds they cannot go on rampages as easily because of filters on gun ownership. They totally can, for instance: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_attacks_in_China https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_attacks_in_China: > On March 23, 2010, Zheng Minsheng (郑民生)[7] 41, murdered eight children with a knife in an elementary school in Nanping,[8] Fujian province... > An attacker named Wu Huanming (吴环明), 48, killed seven children and two adults and injured 11 other persons with a cleaver at a kindergarten in Hanzhong, Shaanxi on May 12, 2010... > On 4 August 2010, 26-year-old Fang Jiantang (方建堂) slashed more than 20 children and staff with a 60 cm knife, killing three children and a teacher at a kindergarten in Zibo, Shandong province.... > The death toll has risen to nine in Friday's stabbing attack outside a middle school in northwestern China allegedly carried out by a former pupil seeking revenge for having been bullied.... etc.
      - xvector 4y ago
        Notice how these don't even come close to the weekly school shootings in the US.
        tablespoon 4y ago
        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_attacks_in_China https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_attacks_in_China: > Reaction and response > ...The state media has also been keeping news of these attacks quiet by deleting forum entries on the internet and releasing few facts on the incident for fear of copycat crimes and mass panic... > Following the Chenpeng school attack, the Chinese government began posting security guards in schools throughout the country. It was planned that all schools have a security guard by 2013.
- JKCalhoun 4y ago
  I see the comments in this thread being downvoted that point out that Europe (for example) have the same societal issues as the U.S. but don't have the same gun availability.
  - tempsy 4y ago
    People seem to be trying to argue Europe and the US are very similar culture wise but I don’t think that’s true at all. IMO the biggest problem with the US over Europe is lack of social cohesion, lack of familial cohesion that includes extended families, focus on individualism over community, and lack of social safety nets. These factors have a huge impact on mental well being. The idea that Europe and the US are very similar other than access to guns just because both are developed western nations is very naive…
    - mahastore 4y ago
    - simon1ltd 4y ago
      I think we'd need to be honest about it and compare individual European countries to individual US states. New York and California are NOT like Alabama, Texas and Florida. California, Illinois and New York have different populations and different issues than Ohio, Texas, and Alabama for example.
      - tempsy 4y ago
        I’m not sure what you’re getting at. The mass shooting that happened 2 weeks earlier was in New York. And the social issues I pointed out are not state specific. I’d argue it largely applies to the US as a whole.
- madengr 4y ago
- Pxtl 4y ago
  You don't have to go all the way to Europe. Canada exists. Canada is culturally very similar to the USA, has a similar incidence of mental health, has similar usage of drugs to treat mental health. However, Canada has stricter gun laws. While bolt-action hunting rifles are legal and unregistered in Canada, owning one involves getting PAL, which is similar to earning a driver's license. It involves lessons and tests. And more... murder-y weapons like pistols and "assault-style"[1] rifles are either banned or restricted. Restricted means the gun is registered, you take extra certifications, and you fill out paperwork just to transport it from your home to the firing range, which is basically the only place you can legally fire the thing. Shootings still happen. There was a tragedy in Quebec City a few years back where a "great replacement" nut shot up a mosque (which illustrates how we have the same cultural problems as Americans). But the number, per capita, is tiny compared to Americans. It's hard to escape the obvious conclusion that the reason there are so many gun deaths in America is because guns are so poorly controlled. Most of the street crime guns here are smuggled over the border (America is to guns as Escobar's Colombia was to cocaine), so the lax gun laws don't just impact the USA. [1] yes I know it's a vague term but you also know what I mean don't @ me.
  - philistine 4y ago
    > yes I know it's a vague term but you also know what I mean don't @ me. Our world is filled to the brim with vague constructed terms to solve for a problem, not for a clean categorization. The assault-style category is a desire to lump all the guns that multiply too much the assailant's power. It's not about a certain bullet type, or a specific barrel length. If it's too good at doing a mass shooting, it's assault-style.
  - refurb 4y ago
    Canada had a mass shooting in 2020 in Nova Scotia where 23 people were murdered by a guy well known to the police. The Wikipedia article only covers the major ones, but Canada has a mass shoot pretty regularly too. And if shooting scale by population, you'd expect the US to have 10x as many - all else being equal. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Mass_shootings_in_Canada https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Mass_shootings_in_Can... Certainly NOT saying it's not a problem, but one needs to put things in perspective if you want to get to the root cause.
- pdonis 4y ago
  > The problem is guns. No, the problem is guns in the possession of people who can't use them responsibly. Guns aren't magic. They don't take over a person's mind and make them shoot other people. The people who misuse guns would misuse any other weapon you gave them. Or even things that you might not think of as weapons. But the vast majority of gun owners are not such people; they are responsible law-abiding citizens. So any policy about guns, at least in the US where we have the Second Amendment as part of our Constitution, has to be based on letting responsible, law-abiding citizens have guns. Otherwise you are punishing responsible, law-abiding citizens for the misdeeds of a very small number of people who are not responsible or law-abiding. That's not a good idea.
  - mahastore 4y ago
    - pdonis 4y ago
      > Dont care. Its a small punishment for a greater good. This sort of attitude is a big reason why US politics is polarized around this issue. So let me try to adjust your "small punishment for a greater good" attitude a bit. Guns are self-defense weapons. They are particularly useful as equalizers: a little old lady who can shoot can defend herself against a mugger much larger than her in a way she couldn't possibly do by any other means. So any government that proposes to take away people's guns "for a greater good" has an absolute obligation to extirpate any kind of violent crime that might cause a person to need a gun for self-defense. I mean "extirpate" literally: zero violent crime. Or at least so close to it as to be rounding error. But of course no government on Earth ever has or ever can achieve that level of control over violent crime, at least not in a free country. Perhaps China could do it, though even there I doubt it: China has criminal gangs. So given that the government can't possibly make it truly unnecessary for any law-abiding citizen to need a gun, if the government still insists on taking away people's guns "for a greater good", the government is taking the attitude that, as long as the politicians who live in gated communities and have personal protective details can have their bodyguards have guns so they aren't victims of violent crime, they don't care that the people they're supposed to be representing are victims of violent crime and can't defend themselves. And that is not an acceptable attitude for the government of a free country.
blounderdoo 4y ago
Sorry, no. Precisely nobody employed by a school district is getting involved in medication nor diagnosis for children. Nobody. Not even in Texas, and especially not a new grad with “assistant” in their title. Nurses might dispense prescriptions as prescribed but that is a firm end to the involvement in a child’s medical situation. Your wife’s master’s degree does not permit diagnosis of mental health and suggestion of medication or diagnosis in a counseling setting would be criminal, prosecutable behavior. The alleged people pushing her to do so would both know this and be just as culpable. And cui bono? You realize for your story to be true there has to be a pharmaceutical rep/third party paying a school district to perpetuate trivially prosecutable behavior for everyone involved, right? In the United States this has not been controversial for decades and is common knowledge among educators. I’m sorry, either you gravely misunderstood the situation, or your story is complete fiction. I’m concerned that you don’t know what her title was but you know they wanted the kids on drugs and maybe if we didn’t do that some kids would still be alive. I’m also concerned your story just happens to be in Texas, of all the places. Source: Educator. Edit: lol, six downvotes between HN cache misses kinda proves my subtle allegation, genius
- artificialLimbs 4y ago
  LSSP, apparently. Maybe no one in your school is getting involved with it, but her school was doing diagnosis and referrals to external psychs.
- gjs278 4y ago
- pkphilip 4y ago
  Whoever is involved, it is true that antidepressant use among children in the US is much higher than in the rest of the world. https://www.theguardian.com/society/2015/nov/21/children-who-grow-up-on-prescription-drugs-us https://www.theguardian.com/society/2015/nov/21/children-who... Quoting the article: "According to America’s Centers for Disease Control, 11% of four- to 17-year-olds in the US have been diagnosed with ADHD, a label for those who are disruptive in class and unable to concentrate; just over 6% are taking medication." "In the UK, meanwhile, about 3% of children are diagnosed with ADHD; just 1% are on medication. American children can go through six or seven different drugs quite early in their lives; in the UK, children are usually sent for cognitive behaviour therapy first, in line with guidance from the National Institute for Health and Care Excellence." "It is now generally accepted, says David Healy, professor of psychiatry at Bangor University, that 20%-25% of students at most universities in the US are on medication, often on multiple prescriptions"

xvector 4y ago

Mental illness, mental healthcare and pharmaceutical treatments are a thing in Europe too. The US is not a special outlier when it comes to bullying and mental health. But you don't see children being gunned down every other week in Europe. The problem is guns.

ahallock 4y ago
So guns are what caused this tragedy? The mere existing of them in the US causes people to lose their minds and go on rampages? We need to get to the root of the problem because people will find another way to enact their evil. Look at Boston Marathon incident
- JKCalhoun 4y ago
  Your reply seems disingenuous. The person you are replying to did not say guns caused the tragedy. Rather the availability of guns in the U.S. is why we see school shootings every week in the U.S. and not in Europe.
  - dontcare007 4y ago
    4000 people were killed due to the threat of box cutters... over 100 people were killed by a fertilizer bomb. People die due to knives, hammers and fists. It's a people problem.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- xvector 4y ago
  Again, Europe has mental illness. But Europe does not have weekly school shootings. It really is not that complicated. Guns enable anyone who becomes mentally ill to kill magnitudes more people.
- Bud 4y ago
  No. The vast majority will NOT find another way. There's a reason 99.8% of this stuff is done with guns. AR-15s, to be specific, or something very similar. It's because that's what is easy. These people aren't geniuses. If you take the assault weapons away, the vast majority of this will just stop happening. This is a solved issue. We know how to solve it.
  - ahallock 4y ago
    I don't think the Boston bombers or people using trucks to run people over are geniuses. Even the Batman killer was building bombs in his apartment. It's not rocket science. You may reduce the casualties with a ban and confiscation but you still have handguns to deal with. Good luck banning those. And you also have not solved the underlying problem causing these violent ideations in the first place. So I consider that a bandaid, not a solved problem by any definition.
- throw0101a 4y ago
  > So guns are what caused this tragedy? The mere existing of them in the US causes people to lose their minds and go on rampages? When people in other countries lose their minds they cannot go on rampages as easily because of filters on gun ownership. In fact before people go on rampages they often go to the US first to get guns so their rampages can be more 'effective' where they actually do live: * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020_Nova_Scotia_attacks https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020_Nova_Scotia_attacks
  - tablespoon 4y ago
    > When people in other countries lose their minds they cannot go on rampages as easily because of filters on gun ownership. They totally can, for instance: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_attacks_in_China https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_attacks_in_China: > On March 23, 2010, Zheng Minsheng (郑民生)[7] 41, murdered eight children with a knife in an elementary school in Nanping,[8] Fujian province... > An attacker named Wu Huanming (吴环明), 48, killed seven children and two adults and injured 11 other persons with a cleaver at a kindergarten in Hanzhong, Shaanxi on May 12, 2010... > On 4 August 2010, 26-year-old Fang Jiantang (方建堂) slashed more than 20 children and staff with a 60 cm knife, killing three children and a teacher at a kindergarten in Zibo, Shandong province.... > The death toll has risen to nine in Friday's stabbing attack outside a middle school in northwestern China allegedly carried out by a former pupil seeking revenge for having been bullied.... etc.
    - xvector 4y ago
      Notice how these don't even come close to the weekly school shootings in the US.
      - tablespoon 4y ago
        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_attacks_in_China https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_attacks_in_China: > Reaction and response > ...The state media has also been keeping news of these attacks quiet by deleting forum entries on the internet and releasing few facts on the incident for fear of copycat crimes and mass panic... > Following the Chenpeng school attack, the Chinese government began posting security guards in schools throughout the country. It was planned that all schools have a security guard by 2013.
JKCalhoun 4y ago
I see the comments in this thread being downvoted that point out that Europe (for example) have the same societal issues as the U.S. but don't have the same gun availability.
- tempsy 4y ago
  People seem to be trying to argue Europe and the US are very similar culture wise but I don’t think that’s true at all. IMO the biggest problem with the US over Europe is lack of social cohesion, lack of familial cohesion that includes extended families, focus on individualism over community, and lack of social safety nets. These factors have a huge impact on mental well being. The idea that Europe and the US are very similar other than access to guns just because both are developed western nations is very naive…
  - mahastore 4y ago
  - simon1ltd 4y ago
    I think we'd need to be honest about it and compare individual European countries to individual US states. New York and California are NOT like Alabama, Texas and Florida. California, Illinois and New York have different populations and different issues than Ohio, Texas, and Alabama for example.
    - tempsy 4y ago
      I’m not sure what you’re getting at. The mass shooting that happened 2 weeks earlier was in New York. And the social issues I pointed out are not state specific. I’d argue it largely applies to the US as a whole.
madengr 4y ago
Pxtl 4y ago
You don't have to go all the way to Europe. Canada exists. Canada is culturally very similar to the USA, has a similar incidence of mental health, has similar usage of drugs to treat mental health. However, Canada has stricter gun laws. While bolt-action hunting rifles are legal and unregistered in Canada, owning one involves getting PAL, which is similar to earning a driver's license. It involves lessons and tests. And more... murder-y weapons like pistols and "assault-style"[1] rifles are either banned or restricted. Restricted means the gun is registered, you take extra certifications, and you fill out paperwork just to transport it from your home to the firing range, which is basically the only place you can legally fire the thing. Shootings still happen. There was a tragedy in Quebec City a few years back where a "great replacement" nut shot up a mosque (which illustrates how we have the same cultural problems as Americans). But the number, per capita, is tiny compared to Americans. It's hard to escape the obvious conclusion that the reason there are so many gun deaths in America is because guns are so poorly controlled. Most of the street crime guns here are smuggled over the border (America is to guns as Escobar's Colombia was to cocaine), so the lax gun laws don't just impact the USA. [1] yes I know it's a vague term but you also know what I mean don't @ me.
- philistine 4y ago
  > yes I know it's a vague term but you also know what I mean don't @ me. Our world is filled to the brim with vague constructed terms to solve for a problem, not for a clean categorization. The assault-style category is a desire to lump all the guns that multiply too much the assailant's power. It's not about a certain bullet type, or a specific barrel length. If it's too good at doing a mass shooting, it's assault-style.
- refurb 4y ago
  Canada had a mass shooting in 2020 in Nova Scotia where 23 people were murdered by a guy well known to the police. The Wikipedia article only covers the major ones, but Canada has a mass shoot pretty regularly too. And if shooting scale by population, you'd expect the US to have 10x as many - all else being equal. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Mass_shootings_in_Canada https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Mass_shootings_in_Can... Certainly NOT saying it's not a problem, but one needs to put things in perspective if you want to get to the root cause.
pdonis 4y ago
> The problem is guns. No, the problem is guns in the possession of people who can't use them responsibly. Guns aren't magic. They don't take over a person's mind and make them shoot other people. The people who misuse guns would misuse any other weapon you gave them. Or even things that you might not think of as weapons. But the vast majority of gun owners are not such people; they are responsible law-abiding citizens. So any policy about guns, at least in the US where we have the Second Amendment as part of our Constitution, has to be based on letting responsible, law-abiding citizens have guns. Otherwise you are punishing responsible, law-abiding citizens for the misdeeds of a very small number of people who are not responsible or law-abiding. That's not a good idea.
- mahastore 4y ago
  - pdonis 4y ago
    > Dont care. Its a small punishment for a greater good. This sort of attitude is a big reason why US politics is polarized around this issue. So let me try to adjust your "small punishment for a greater good" attitude a bit. Guns are self-defense weapons. They are particularly useful as equalizers: a little old lady who can shoot can defend herself against a mugger much larger than her in a way she couldn't possibly do by any other means. So any government that proposes to take away people's guns "for a greater good" has an absolute obligation to extirpate any kind of violent crime that might cause a person to need a gun for self-defense. I mean "extirpate" literally: zero violent crime. Or at least so close to it as to be rounding error. But of course no government on Earth ever has or ever can achieve that level of control over violent crime, at least not in a free country. Perhaps China could do it, though even there I doubt it: China has criminal gangs. So given that the government can't possibly make it truly unnecessary for any law-abiding citizen to need a gun, if the government still insists on taking away people's guns "for a greater good", the government is taking the attitude that, as long as the politicians who live in gated communities and have personal protective details can have their bodyguards have guns so they aren't victims of violent crime, they don't care that the people they're supposed to be representing are victims of violent crime and can't defend themselves. And that is not an acceptable attitude for the government of a free country.

blounderdoo 4y ago

Sorry, no. Precisely nobody employed by a school district is getting involved in medication nor diagnosis for children. Nobody. Not even in Texas, and especially not a new grad with “assistant” in their title. Nurses might dispense prescriptions as prescribed but that is a firm end to the involvement in a child’s medical situation. Your wife’s master’s degree does not permit diagnosis of mental health and suggestion of medication or diagnosis in a counseling setting would be criminal, prosecutable behavior. The alleged people pushing her to do so would both know this and be just as culpable. And cui bono? You realize for your story to be true there has to be a pharmaceutical rep/third party paying a school district to perpetuate trivially prosecutable behavior for everyone involved, right? In the United States this has not been controversial for decades and is common knowledge among educators. I’m sorry, either you gravely misunderstood the situation, or your story is complete fiction. I’m concerned that you don’t know what her title was but you know they wanted the kids on drugs and maybe if we didn’t do that some kids would still be alive. I’m also concerned your story just happens to be in Texas, of all the places. Source: Educator. Edit: lol, six downvotes between HN cache misses kinda proves my subtle allegation, genius

artificialLimbs 4y ago
LSSP, apparently. Maybe no one in your school is getting involved with it, but her school was doing diagnosis and referrals to external psychs.
gjs278 4y ago
pkphilip 4y ago
Whoever is involved, it is true that antidepressant use among children in the US is much higher than in the rest of the world. https://www.theguardian.com/society/2015/nov/21/children-who-grow-up-on-prescription-drugs-us https://www.theguardian.com/society/2015/nov/21/children-who... Quoting the article: "According to America’s Centers for Disease Control, 11% of four- to 17-year-olds in the US have been diagnosed with ADHD, a label for those who are disruptive in class and unable to concentrate; just over 6% are taking medication." "In the UK, meanwhile, about 3% of children are diagnosed with ADHD; just 1% are on medication. American children can go through six or seven different drugs quite early in their lives; in the UK, children are usually sent for cognitive behaviour therapy first, in line with guidance from the National Institute for Health and Care Excellence." "It is now generally accepted, says David Healy, professor of psychiatry at Bangor University, that 20%-25% of students at most universities in the US are on medication, often on multiple prescriptions"