4 ms·

On the other hand, we want to prevent new companies forming on the premise they can make money from gamifying their product so much it becomes addictive. Now,

by mc32 4y ago

On the other hand, we want to prevent new companies forming on the premise they can make money from gamifying their product so much it becomes addictive. Now, addictiveness has to have some definition to be useful. It can't be some odd random user who suffers from some kind of condition that prevents them from self-regulating their particular addiction whereas for example other people don't get addicted. There have to be some thresholds and milestones which indicate some service is "addictive" and then regulate against that.

throw_m239339 4y ago
> we want to prevent new companies forming on the premise they can make money from gamifying their product so much it becomes addictive Not if the existing companies are still allowed to do exactly that, or it's just called regulatory capture and serves the interests of Reddit/Twitter/Facebook/TikTok and co. Either it's illegal for everybody to exploit mental illness for profit or it's legal for everybody.
- mc32 4y ago
  No disagreement there.
heavyset_go 4y ago
I think when companies consult with behavioral, and other, psychologists in order to craft better ways to wring more engagement out of their users, those companies are intentionally making their products addictive. I don't see it as being much different than exploiting the addictive potential of new nicotine salts, or exploiting additives to cigarettes to do the same. It can be spun however anyone wants to spin it, but at the end of the day, that's exploiting biology to subvert the will of others. And yes, I know this can describe advertising, as well.
- mc32 4y ago
  Agreed. This is why the "metaverse" needs oversight as well. It will be a new frontier ripe for gamification, explication and general behavioral control.
  - westurner 4y ago
    No, every business optimizes yield. Smart businesses optimize UX for conversion. FREE with no revenue is loss. What's next? Suing vegas for the lights? You don't want to gamble? Don't go to Vegas. They already have "How much time have I spent in here?" features. You may not optimize yield because the children are compulsive addictive and it's the internet's fault. What's next? Suing the bar for allowing you to spend time there? You'll have to make it more unbearable. Just do a little more censorship for me too, mmkay?
    - westurner 4y ago
      How about the movies? Are they allowed to optimize for engagement by screen testing, or no? It's not Art it's Ari: You want to sell an art film? Take it to an art film festival. How are they supposed to know that you don't want to be in the store anymore?
      - westurner 4y ago
        So, just {Facebook,} has to have a timer at the top? Above the fold? Indicating cumulative time spent? What about Amazon? For context here, there are many existing methods for limiting ones access to certain DNS domains and applications at the client. A reasonable person can: - Add an /etc/hosts file entry: `etchosts='/etc/hosts' echo '127.0.0.1 domain.com www.domain.com' >> "${etchosts}` - Install a browser extension for limiting time spent by domain - Buy a router that can limit access by DNS domain and time of day (with regard for the essential communications of others who could bypass default DNS blocking with a VPN that can be expected to also regularly fail) - Install an app (with access to the OS process space of other programs in order to restrict them) to limit time spent by application and/or DNS domain -- Enable "Focus Mode" in Android; with the "Digital Wellbeing" application -- Enable "Screen Time" in iOS; and also report on and limit usage of apps [and also to limit access to DNS domains, you'd also need required integration with a required browser] You can install just an IM (Instant Messenging) app, and only then learn strategies for focusing amidst information overload and alert fatigue. Some users do manage brands and provide customer service and support non-blocked but blocking essential communications, while managing their health at a desk all day. Some places literally require you to check your mobile device at the door. What should the default timer above the fold on just facebook be set to?
hoseja 4y ago
It's possible for an adult to enjoy these strongly addictive products responsibly, probably up until they figure out a way to audiovisually create heroin in your brain.

by mc32 4y ago

throw_m239339 4y ago

> we want to prevent new companies forming on the premise they can make money from gamifying their product so much it becomes addictive Not if the existing companies are still allowed to do exactly that, or it's just called regulatory capture and serves the interests of Reddit/Twitter/Facebook/TikTok and co. Either it's illegal for everybody to exploit mental illness for profit or it's legal for everybody.

mc32 4y ago
No disagreement there.

heavyset_go 4y ago

I think when companies consult with behavioral, and other, psychologists in order to craft better ways to wring more engagement out of their users, those companies are intentionally making their products addictive. I don't see it as being much different than exploiting the addictive potential of new nicotine salts, or exploiting additives to cigarettes to do the same. It can be spun however anyone wants to spin it, but at the end of the day, that's exploiting biology to subvert the will of others. And yes, I know this can describe advertising, as well.

mc32 4y ago
Agreed. This is why the "metaverse" needs oversight as well. It will be a new frontier ripe for gamification, explication and general behavioral control.
- westurner 4y ago
  No, every business optimizes yield. Smart businesses optimize UX for conversion. FREE with no revenue is loss. What's next? Suing vegas for the lights? You don't want to gamble? Don't go to Vegas. They already have "How much time have I spent in here?" features. You may not optimize yield because the children are compulsive addictive and it's the internet's fault. What's next? Suing the bar for allowing you to spend time there? You'll have to make it more unbearable. Just do a little more censorship for me too, mmkay?
  - westurner 4y ago
    How about the movies? Are they allowed to optimize for engagement by screen testing, or no? It's not Art it's Ari: You want to sell an art film? Take it to an art film festival. How are they supposed to know that you don't want to be in the store anymore?
    - westurner 4y ago
      So, just {Facebook,} has to have a timer at the top? Above the fold? Indicating cumulative time spent? What about Amazon? For context here, there are many existing methods for limiting ones access to certain DNS domains and applications at the client. A reasonable person can: - Add an /etc/hosts file entry: `etchosts='/etc/hosts' echo '127.0.0.1 domain.com www.domain.com' >> "${etchosts}` - Install a browser extension for limiting time spent by domain - Buy a router that can limit access by DNS domain and time of day (with regard for the essential communications of others who could bypass default DNS blocking with a VPN that can be expected to also regularly fail) - Install an app (with access to the OS process space of other programs in order to restrict them) to limit time spent by application and/or DNS domain -- Enable "Focus Mode" in Android; with the "Digital Wellbeing" application -- Enable "Screen Time" in iOS; and also report on and limit usage of apps [and also to limit access to DNS domains, you'd also need required integration with a required browser] You can install just an IM (Instant Messenging) app, and only then learn strategies for focusing amidst information overload and alert fatigue. Some users do manage brands and provide customer service and support non-blocked but blocking essential communications, while managing their health at a desk all day. Some places literally require you to check your mobile device at the door. What should the default timer above the fold on just facebook be set to?

hoseja 4y ago

It's possible for an adult to enjoy these strongly addictive products responsibly, probably up until they figure out a way to audiovisually create heroin in your brain.