3 ms·

Its a good thing that books like 1491 are increasingly validated with archeology. The previous prevailing wisdom held that outside of the Aztecs and the Inca s

Its a good thing that books like 1491 are increasingly validated with archeology. The previous prevailing wisdom held that outside of the Aztecs and the Inca sophisticated urban settlement didn't prevail in the Amazon due to the "Green Desert" hypothesis and primitive tools. This research confirms early Spanish chronicles, previously derided as fanciful, that vast urban settlements existed along rivers for many miles and would stretch continuously for hours as they travelled down river.

NelsonMinar 4y ago
1491 was reporting on archeology, cutting edge archeology for when it was written in 2005. It's nice to see the field progressing but it wasn't like Mann was guessing! I'm just eager for a new book updated with all the findings since that book was written.
- mooreds 4y ago
  I'd buy that book for sure. 1491 was eye opening for me in the same way that few books are. Others that come to mind: Guns Germs and Steel Godel Escher Bach
  - jfengel 4y ago
    Guns Germs and Steel is widely considered discredited by anthropologists. It introduces a lot of concepts that were previously unfamiliar to the layman (not unlike Godel, Escher, Bach), but it has a lot of weaknesses and is much too strong in its conclusions. It's worth reading the quick overview in Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guns,_Germs,_and_Steel#Criticism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guns,_Germs,_and_Steel#Critici... I'm not saying it shouldn't be eye-opening, but just that you should take it with a large grain of salt. It's not as definitive as is commonly thought.
    - MichaelZuo 4y ago
      Some of those critiques introduce additional assumptions that Diamond's arguments don't rely on: "has almost no role for human agency—the ability people have to make decisions and influence outcomes. Europeans become inadvertent, accidental conquerors. Natives succumb passively to their fate." Assumes a conquest due to technological and other disparities implies a lack of human agency on both sides. Why wouldn't the level of human agency everywhere remain roughly constant pre and post colonization regardless of what happened? The only way I can make sense of this is if the writer assumes 'human agency' is some magical force that can overcome every other factor. "Diamond's account makes all the factors of European domination a product of a distant and accidental history" Assumes all 'factors' arose as a result of events in the distant past. Gunpowder, which was spread from China via the silk road, clearly and immediately was put to use fairly soon after the Spanish got hold of it, within a few generations. etc.
    - mooreds 4y ago
      Thanks, I wasn't aware of the critiques!
robinsoh 4y ago
I misunderstood what you wrote due to the 2 conditionals you had "previous... didn't". I re-read what you wrote and you're correctly saying that there were sophisticated urban dense settlements in the Amazon. From the paper: "Here we present lidar data of sites belonging to the Casarabe culture (around ad 500 to ad 1400)10,11,12,13 in the Llanos de Mojos savannah–forest mosaic, southwest Amazonia, revealing the presence of two remarkably large sites (147 ha and 315 ha) in a dense four-tiered settlement system. "
sc90 4y ago
You must be referring to Fransisco de Orellana, re early Spanish chronicles. More on that on this JRE podcast clip https://youtu.be/Cn1MugPalaA?t=118 https://youtu.be/Cn1MugPalaA?t=118

NelsonMinar 4y ago

1491 was reporting on archeology, cutting edge archeology for when it was written in 2005. It's nice to see the field progressing but it wasn't like Mann was guessing! I'm just eager for a new book updated with all the findings since that book was written.

mooreds 4y ago
I'd buy that book for sure. 1491 was eye opening for me in the same way that few books are. Others that come to mind: Guns Germs and Steel Godel Escher Bach
- jfengel 4y ago
  Guns Germs and Steel is widely considered discredited by anthropologists. It introduces a lot of concepts that were previously unfamiliar to the layman (not unlike Godel, Escher, Bach), but it has a lot of weaknesses and is much too strong in its conclusions. It's worth reading the quick overview in Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guns,_Germs,_and_Steel#Criticism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guns,_Germs,_and_Steel#Critici... I'm not saying it shouldn't be eye-opening, but just that you should take it with a large grain of salt. It's not as definitive as is commonly thought.
  - MichaelZuo 4y ago
    Some of those critiques introduce additional assumptions that Diamond's arguments don't rely on: "has almost no role for human agency—the ability people have to make decisions and influence outcomes. Europeans become inadvertent, accidental conquerors. Natives succumb passively to their fate." Assumes a conquest due to technological and other disparities implies a lack of human agency on both sides. Why wouldn't the level of human agency everywhere remain roughly constant pre and post colonization regardless of what happened? The only way I can make sense of this is if the writer assumes 'human agency' is some magical force that can overcome every other factor. "Diamond's account makes all the factors of European domination a product of a distant and accidental history" Assumes all 'factors' arose as a result of events in the distant past. Gunpowder, which was spread from China via the silk road, clearly and immediately was put to use fairly soon after the Spanish got hold of it, within a few generations. etc.
  - mooreds 4y ago
    Thanks, I wasn't aware of the critiques!

robinsoh 4y ago

I misunderstood what you wrote due to the 2 conditionals you had "previous... didn't". I re-read what you wrote and you're correctly saying that there were sophisticated urban dense settlements in the Amazon. From the paper: "Here we present lidar data of sites belonging to the Casarabe culture (around ad 500 to ad 1400)10,11,12,13 in the Llanos de Mojos savannah–forest mosaic, southwest Amazonia, revealing the presence of two remarkably large sites (147 ha and 315 ha) in a dense four-tiered settlement system. "

sc90 4y ago

You must be referring to Fransisco de Orellana, re early Spanish chronicles. More on that on this JRE podcast clip https://youtu.be/Cn1MugPalaA?t=118 https://youtu.be/Cn1MugPalaA?t=118