4 ms·

They're evil, vicious, and morally reprehensible. They're not (in general) mentally ill.

s1artibartfast 4y ago
This is just semantics around the definition of mentally ill. You can move away from it and ask what is unique about the mental state where someone wants to shoot children and follows through on it. You can ask if this mental state is preventable.
- guerrilla 4y ago
  Mental illness isn't about general states and conseqncues but suffering and disability to the patient, like all illness.
  - s1artibartfast 4y ago
    Semantics again. Who cares? Don't call it mental illness then, but mental states, neuro architecture, chemical disfunction, or bad brains. It is clear that healthy well adjusted people don't fixate on slaughtering children
    - guerrilla 4y ago
      "Semantics" Ueah the meaning of words is important becUse of the consequences. What we care about with mental illness is suffering because its good to reduce it. It's absolutely critical. > It is clear that healthy well adjusted people don't fixate on slaughtering children All the people who waged war and genocide throughout history have nothing to do with the suffering of the mentally ill due to their genetics , behavior and genrics. Don't be so dismissive. It's very disrespectful.
      - s1artibartfast 4y ago
        I was the one offering alternative language here to not offend people with a specific definition of mental illness. If you just want to argue the point I'm offering to concede, I'm happy to steal man it. If you have you ever known someone that is mentally ill, you know that their illness does not preclude the ability to harm and make those around them suffer. Many School shooters are capable of suffering themselves, and in fact their suffering often plays a large role in their motivations. They can also suffer during a lifetime of incarceration or the anguish of being executed. They often have major mental disabilities, like the inability to feel empathy. There are a large number of neuropsychiatric disorders associated with persistent antisocial and criminal behavior, such as Psychopathy, Sadistic personality disorder, narcissism, depression, and paranoia. Are these not mental illnesses by your definition? Nobody is claiming that the mentally ill are dangerous. However, deadly mass shooters are often mentally ill. For example, studies have found some indication of autistic spectrum disorder in ~30% of of school shooters[1]. This is but one neuropsychiatric disorder. To ask the inverse question, Do you think that school shooters are mentally healthy?? If not, how would you fit their psychology and behavior into our scientific model of neuroscience? https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/00223980.2016.1175998 https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/00223980.2016.1...
astrange 4y ago
Mentally ill means whatever we want it to mean, and there’s no reason not to make it include this. If there was a "treatment" that worked, it'd be a good alternative to life in prison. (Although if that was some kind of future-lobotomy, it'd have a lot of its own ethical issues.)
- rhcom2 4y ago
  > Mentally ill means whatever we want it to mean That isn't how medicine works though.
  - itsyaboi 4y ago
    Sure it does. All it takes is consensus.
  - astrange 4y ago
    I don’t think the problem is it’s untreatable so much as it’s ego-syntonic (ie they don’t feel anything is wrong) and so they’re not going to ask for help. But most personality disorders are like that. IIRC mass killers do have some prior behaviors in common, but it’s not that they like wearing trenchcoats and violent video games, more like they often start with domestic violence or hit women.
  - l33t2328 4y ago
    It is how mental health works though. The DSM can record whatever the community wants as an illness.
  - jcims 4y ago
    Most medical definitions of the term disability largely rhyme with the CDC's: https://www.cdc.gov/ncbddd/disabilityandhealth/disability.html https://www.cdc.gov/ncbddd/disabilityandhealth/disability.ht... >A disability is any condition of the body or mind (impairment) that makes it more difficult for the person with the condition to do certain activities (activity limitation) and interact with the world around them (participation restrictions). Why would commission of a violent crime, which could lead to life imprisonment or the death penalty, be less of a mental health issue than sex or gambling addiction, alcoholism, etc which generally have less of an impact on one's life?

This is just semantics around the definition of mentally ill. You can move away from it and ask what is unique about the mental state where someone wants to shoot children and follows through on it. You can ask if this mental state is preventable.

guerrilla 4y ago
Mental illness isn't about general states and conseqncues but suffering and disability to the patient, like all illness.
- s1artibartfast 4y ago
  Semantics again. Who cares? Don't call it mental illness then, but mental states, neuro architecture, chemical disfunction, or bad brains. It is clear that healthy well adjusted people don't fixate on slaughtering children
  - guerrilla 4y ago
    "Semantics" Ueah the meaning of words is important becUse of the consequences. What we care about with mental illness is suffering because its good to reduce it. It's absolutely critical. > It is clear that healthy well adjusted people don't fixate on slaughtering children All the people who waged war and genocide throughout history have nothing to do with the suffering of the mentally ill due to their genetics , behavior and genrics. Don't be so dismissive. It's very disrespectful.
    - s1artibartfast 4y ago
      I was the one offering alternative language here to not offend people with a specific definition of mental illness. If you just want to argue the point I'm offering to concede, I'm happy to steal man it. If you have you ever known someone that is mentally ill, you know that their illness does not preclude the ability to harm and make those around them suffer. Many School shooters are capable of suffering themselves, and in fact their suffering often plays a large role in their motivations. They can also suffer during a lifetime of incarceration or the anguish of being executed. They often have major mental disabilities, like the inability to feel empathy. There are a large number of neuropsychiatric disorders associated with persistent antisocial and criminal behavior, such as Psychopathy, Sadistic personality disorder, narcissism, depression, and paranoia. Are these not mental illnesses by your definition? Nobody is claiming that the mentally ill are dangerous. However, deadly mass shooters are often mentally ill. For example, studies have found some indication of autistic spectrum disorder in ~30% of of school shooters[1]. This is but one neuropsychiatric disorder. To ask the inverse question, Do you think that school shooters are mentally healthy?? If not, how would you fit their psychology and behavior into our scientific model of neuroscience? https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/00223980.2016.1175998 https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/00223980.2016.1...

astrange 4y ago

Mentally ill means whatever we want it to mean, and there’s no reason not to make it include this. If there was a "treatment" that worked, it'd be a good alternative to life in prison. (Although if that was some kind of future-lobotomy, it'd have a lot of its own ethical issues.)

rhcom2 4y ago
> Mentally ill means whatever we want it to mean That isn't how medicine works though.
- itsyaboi 4y ago
  Sure it does. All it takes is consensus.
- astrange 4y ago
  I don’t think the problem is it’s untreatable so much as it’s ego-syntonic (ie they don’t feel anything is wrong) and so they’re not going to ask for help. But most personality disorders are like that. IIRC mass killers do have some prior behaviors in common, but it’s not that they like wearing trenchcoats and violent video games, more like they often start with domestic violence or hit women.
- l33t2328 4y ago
  It is how mental health works though. The DSM can record whatever the community wants as an illness.
- jcims 4y ago
  Most medical definitions of the term disability largely rhyme with the CDC's: https://www.cdc.gov/ncbddd/disabilityandhealth/disability.html https://www.cdc.gov/ncbddd/disabilityandhealth/disability.ht... >A disability is any condition of the body or mind (impairment) that makes it more difficult for the person with the condition to do certain activities (activity limitation) and interact with the world around them (participation restrictions). Why would commission of a violent crime, which could lead to life imprisonment or the death penalty, be less of a mental health issue than sex or gambling addiction, alcoholism, etc which generally have less of an impact on one's life?