8 ms·

> Can we? We can't solve this problem because we're all talking about highly theoretical and utopian solutions that don't account for actually existing realiti

> Can we? We can't solve this problem because we're all talking about highly theoretical and utopian solutions that don't account for actually existing realities. The left says "no guns". The right says "more guns". The US constitution says "the right to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed." Yes, there's a preface about a well regulated militia, and yes, people were using muskets when it was written, but the Supreme Court has ruled that this confers an individual right to possess modern firearms. And the Supreme Court is even more right-wing now, and likely to force blue states to loosen their gun laws to look more like red states. So maybe we'd have a more productive conversation if we talked about what's possible in the actually existing United States instead of dreaming about Australia's successes, because there's zero probability that we'll be able to learn from Australia.

dragontamer 4y ago
> The left says "no guns". The right says "more guns". The left actually says "more background checks", though there are an unreasonable group that goes for absolutely no guns. There's also the questions about what to do with aftermarket triggers that allow for burst-firing or even fully-automatic firing, which are legal right now (and were used in the Las Vegas mass shooting attack). Banning certain items (ex: large-capacity magazines, trigger-mods, bump-stocks and the like) would still be an improvement.
- koolba 4y ago
  - dragontamer 4y ago
    Its not helpful to say "the left" or "the right". The important bit is that each item here is a legal issue. * Bump-stocks, yes or no? * Trigger-mods, yes or no? (Especially the ones with burst and/or automatic fire modes). * Magazines, what size should we ban? Is 10 bullets enough? 30 bullets? 100 bullets? * Should bullets be regulated in general? We regulate larger-capacity bullets (ex: 155mm artillery shells aren't exactly sold in the streets, nor are 30mm autocannons). So where do we draw the line there? Its not like mortars and grenade launchers are commonly available at gun stores. We have drawn the line and cutoff many kinds of weapons from normal use within this country. If we draw the line a bit more towards background-checks and removing the "automatic-weapons" (bump-stocks and trigger mods) from legality, that probably will help our country out.
    - koolba 4y ago
      I think all of those should be legal. Fully automatic weapons are already legal, they’re just insanely expensive (~$15K for a full auto machine gun) and require a bunch of NFA paperwork to take legal possession.
    - kevin_thibedeau 4y ago
      There are legitimate uses for light trigger actions to minimize disturbance from the finger pull. It isn't hard to bump fire such a gun if you hold it loosely. It would be nice to see the full auto mods to handguns made illegal and manufacturers were forced to modify their designs to impede them. There isn't a legitimate use for mag dumping such a weapon.
      - chroma 4y ago
        Auto sears are illegal. Possessing one is a felony with a penalty of up to 10 years in prison and a fine of $250,000. No legal civilian-owned full-auto firearm has been made since the 1986 ban.[1] There's really no way to make a semi-auto firearm that impedes full auto modification. Full auto is the default behavior. It's the trigger disconnector that makes a handgun semi-auto. That said, full auto isn't very useful. It's inaccurate and eats up ammo quickly, necessitating reloads. 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firearm_Owners_Protection_Act#Ban_on_new_automatic_firearms https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firearm_Owners_Protection_Act#...
        qball 4y ago
        >Full auto is the default behavior. It's the trigger disconnector that makes a handgun semi-auto. This isn't true for any modern rifle or pistol design- the absence of the disconnector just means the gun stop working (hammer follow). You need additional parts to ensure that the gun works properly in full-auto; this is accomplished by a secondary trigger (the 'auto sear') that trips the hammer/striker after the bolt closes. >There's really no way to make a semi-auto firearm that impedes full auto modification. The only designs that work this way are all already classified as machine guns in the US, so they aren't made/sold there any more.
- Zak 4y ago
  It is my understanding that bump stocks are currently treated as machine guns, which is to say almost impossible to legally own in the US. https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2018/12/26/2018-27763/bump-stock-type-devices https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2018/12/26/2018-27...
  - dragontamer 4y ago
    https://news.bloomberglaw.com/white-collar-and-criminal-law/federal-bump-stock-ban-blocked-by-divided-appeals-court https://news.bloomberglaw.com/white-collar-and-criminal-law/... https://firearmslaw.duke.edu/2021/12/bump-stock-ban-heading-for-the-supreme-court-again/ https://firearmslaw.duke.edu/2021/12/bump-stock-ban-heading-... Bump-stocks remain a public political issue, likely heading to the Supreme Court.
    - Zak 4y ago
      It is no surprise that there's a legal challenge underway, but the Supreme Court has not granted certiorari and it is not clear that it will. https://www.scotusblog.com/case-files/cases/gun-owners-of-america-inc-v-garland/ https://www.scotusblog.com/case-files/cases/gun-owners-of-am...
mkr-hn 4y ago
"The left" is not a monolith. There are plenty of leftist gun owners. It's a practical thing rather than a weird obsession, so it doesn't get as much press.
- technothrasher 4y ago
  > It's a practical thing rather than a weird obsession, so it doesn't get as much press. I don't know about that. I know plenty of people on the left that have gun 'obsessions'. I think it's just culturally unacceptable for them to talk about it. Here in Eastern Massachusetts, pretty much everybody (who doesn't tout their minority right-wing victim status on the back window of their pickup truck) will tell you they are anti-gun; but if you feel them out carefully, a good number of them will quietly admit they own guns and enjoy shooting. There are many, many hidden gun collections here.
  - josephcsible 4y ago
    That sounds like a similar situation to the Abilene paradox.
techdragon 4y ago
Australia isn’t really a success at solving the underlying social issues. Except for managing to take away the guns. Which I personally believe was a massive overreaction to an event that provided convenient political capital that politicians wanted to spend so they were seen to be doing something about the tragedy. We also implemented insane gun control laws involving such bull shit as regulating gun shaped toys based on how scary they look… it’s absurd. I doubt that even with our previous level of gun ownership we would have had the same outcome either. We have a social healthcare system that at least provides some level of mental health support and our cultural relationship with guns didn’t fetishise them as implements of power. While this may have eventually changed with greater cultural homogenisation to American content via the internet, I’m unconvinced that it would have ever been the same as we see in America today. The school shooting problem is very very American and i suspect it has a lot to do with cultural contagion brought on by the 24hr news media circus whipping everyone into obsession every time there’s a tragedy.
- thomasfedb 4y ago
  I think the way we regard guns in Australia is important. They are dangerous objects that are either used for work, or as a hobby by a small number. To a very large extent we don't worship or slobber over them. I've fired a gun on three occasions (I was an Army Cadet, I quite enjoyed the experience) and have handled realistic replicas (backstage on set of a theater show). In both settings they're treated as risky objects. You are handed the gun, you use it, and then you hand it back to be locked up. My grandfather is the only person in my family I know who ever owned a gun. He used to keep it in the cupboard under the stairs. He handed it in to police to be destroyed long ago - he felt that he didn't need it, and that the most likely outcome of keeping it was an accident that he would regret. Personally, I'm very happy to live without guns around. If I do want to shoot, I would be able to comply with the regulations in my state fairly easily. It's a bit of paperwork but no worse than, e.g. acquiring powerful lasers, or being allowed to enter an aerodrome for flight training.
  - golemiprague 4y ago
Pxtl 4y ago
The Left is more than willing to take incremental harm-reduction approaches to manage America's gun addiction instead of going cold turkey, but even that is not an option thanks to the USA's anti-democratic Senate.
Bud 4y ago
Please spend 15 seconds looking up what "the left" is actually arguing for before speaking in public about it. Because you appear to not have any idea. Hint: it's what 92-96% of the US public consistently agrees with. Background checks without loopholes, for instance.
- School-Cotton 4y ago
  Why do you think we don’t pass policy that >90% of people agree with? How do you propose to fix that problem? (I’ll give you my personal opinion: we can’t because of structural flaws in the US political system, and the problem is impossible to fix.)
- remarkEon 4y ago
  Just curious, but have you ever purchased a firearm? Background checks are standard procedure. I'm not sure what "loopholes" you are referring to. Usually this refers to private party sales. Do you want private party sales banned?
  - Zak 4y ago
    People often describe the fact that there isn't a background check for private sales in most US states as a loophole. Attempts to add such a requirement in some states, such as Washington have been clumsy and burdensome but it does seem like a good idea in principle.
- Auracle 4y ago
  I would think that percentage would change if people knew what they were agreeing to. “Remove loopholes to get around background checks? Absolutely! Force private owners to report to the government who they sell a gun to, leading to a registry all all gun owners? Maybe not…”
throw0101a 4y ago
> The left says "no guns". The right says "more guns". How much of "the left" is actually about no guns, versus having a few hoops that you have to jump through first, à la (e.g.) Massachusetts: * https://www.vox.com/2018/11/13/17658028/massachusetts-gun-control-laws-licenses https://www.vox.com/2018/11/13/17658028/massachusetts-gun-co... Compared to: "Only in Texas: Lubbock jeweler offers free gun with engagement ring purchase": * https://www.dallasnews.com/news/texas/2016/10/25/only-in-texas-lubbock-jeweler-offers-free-gun-with-engagement-ring-purchase/ https://www.dallasnews.com/news/texas/2016/10/25/only-in-tex...
dukeofdoom 4y ago
Here in Canada the "left" liberal government made it much harder to get a gun license. Then proceeded to mandate the vaccine, fired unvaccinated employees, denied them their EI, and banned about 6 million Canadians from flying to this day. When some truckers protested, they suspended the charter. I can see how many Americans would want to hold to their guns in light of the behaviour of governments over the last few years.
- 9935c101ab17a66 4y ago
  They didn’t “mandate the vaccines”, they required their employees to get vaccinated. If you didn’t want to receive a safe, effective vaccine that billions of people around the world have also received, you had the “freedom” to quit and find another employer. Oh, also? Has anyone actually been fired by the federal government? A cursory search shows 1800 people are on unpaid leave, but they haven’t been terminated. 1800 people out of an estimated 320k employees. Weird.
buscoquadnary 4y ago
In response to the idea that muskets were less dangerous I share the following copypasta Own a musket for home defense, since that's what the founding fathers intended. Four ruffians break into my house. "What the devil?" As I grab my powdered wig and Kentucky rifle. Blow a golf ball sized hole through the first man, he's dead on the spot. Draw my pistol on the second man, miss him entirely because it's smoothbore and nails the neighbors dog. I have to resort to the cannon mounted at the top of the stairs loaded with grape shot, "Tally ho lads" the grape shot shreds two men in the blast, the sound and extra shrapnel set off car alarms. Fix bayonet and charge the last terrified rapscallion. He Bleeds out waiting on the police to arrive since triangular bayonet wounds are impossible to stitch up. Just as the founding fathers intended.
School-Cotton 4y ago
Man, HN is brutal sometimes. I wish you hadn’t made your quip about the left saying “no guns”, because it isn’t important at all to your central point, which is that structural issues in the US prevent meaningful progress on gun control regardless of whether it’s good policy or the majority of people want it. But you have like five people responding to that “left no guns” thing specifically, instead of to your real point, which is absolutely correct and the heart of the issue.

dragontamer 4y ago

> The left says "no guns". The right says "more guns". The left actually says "more background checks", though there are an unreasonable group that goes for absolutely no guns. There's also the questions about what to do with aftermarket triggers that allow for burst-firing or even fully-automatic firing, which are legal right now (and were used in the Las Vegas mass shooting attack). Banning certain items (ex: large-capacity magazines, trigger-mods, bump-stocks and the like) would still be an improvement.

koolba 4y ago
- dragontamer 4y ago
  Its not helpful to say "the left" or "the right". The important bit is that each item here is a legal issue. * Bump-stocks, yes or no? * Trigger-mods, yes or no? (Especially the ones with burst and/or automatic fire modes). * Magazines, what size should we ban? Is 10 bullets enough? 30 bullets? 100 bullets? * Should bullets be regulated in general? We regulate larger-capacity bullets (ex: 155mm artillery shells aren't exactly sold in the streets, nor are 30mm autocannons). So where do we draw the line there? Its not like mortars and grenade launchers are commonly available at gun stores. We have drawn the line and cutoff many kinds of weapons from normal use within this country. If we draw the line a bit more towards background-checks and removing the "automatic-weapons" (bump-stocks and trigger mods) from legality, that probably will help our country out.
  - koolba 4y ago
    I think all of those should be legal. Fully automatic weapons are already legal, they’re just insanely expensive (~$15K for a full auto machine gun) and require a bunch of NFA paperwork to take legal possession.
  - kevin_thibedeau 4y ago
    There are legitimate uses for light trigger actions to minimize disturbance from the finger pull. It isn't hard to bump fire such a gun if you hold it loosely. It would be nice to see the full auto mods to handguns made illegal and manufacturers were forced to modify their designs to impede them. There isn't a legitimate use for mag dumping such a weapon.
    - chroma 4y ago
      Auto sears are illegal. Possessing one is a felony with a penalty of up to 10 years in prison and a fine of $250,000. No legal civilian-owned full-auto firearm has been made since the 1986 ban.[1] There's really no way to make a semi-auto firearm that impedes full auto modification. Full auto is the default behavior. It's the trigger disconnector that makes a handgun semi-auto. That said, full auto isn't very useful. It's inaccurate and eats up ammo quickly, necessitating reloads. 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firearm_Owners_Protection_Act#Ban_on_new_automatic_firearms https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firearm_Owners_Protection_Act#...
      - qball 4y ago
        >Full auto is the default behavior. It's the trigger disconnector that makes a handgun semi-auto. This isn't true for any modern rifle or pistol design- the absence of the disconnector just means the gun stop working (hammer follow). You need additional parts to ensure that the gun works properly in full-auto; this is accomplished by a secondary trigger (the 'auto sear') that trips the hammer/striker after the bolt closes. >There's really no way to make a semi-auto firearm that impedes full auto modification. The only designs that work this way are all already classified as machine guns in the US, so they aren't made/sold there any more.
Zak 4y ago
It is my understanding that bump stocks are currently treated as machine guns, which is to say almost impossible to legally own in the US. https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2018/12/26/2018-27763/bump-stock-type-devices https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2018/12/26/2018-27...
- dragontamer 4y ago
  https://news.bloomberglaw.com/white-collar-and-criminal-law/federal-bump-stock-ban-blocked-by-divided-appeals-court https://news.bloomberglaw.com/white-collar-and-criminal-law/... https://firearmslaw.duke.edu/2021/12/bump-stock-ban-heading-for-the-supreme-court-again/ https://firearmslaw.duke.edu/2021/12/bump-stock-ban-heading-... Bump-stocks remain a public political issue, likely heading to the Supreme Court.
  - Zak 4y ago
    It is no surprise that there's a legal challenge underway, but the Supreme Court has not granted certiorari and it is not clear that it will. https://www.scotusblog.com/case-files/cases/gun-owners-of-america-inc-v-garland/ https://www.scotusblog.com/case-files/cases/gun-owners-of-am...

mkr-hn 4y ago

"The left" is not a monolith. There are plenty of leftist gun owners. It's a practical thing rather than a weird obsession, so it doesn't get as much press.

technothrasher 4y ago
> It's a practical thing rather than a weird obsession, so it doesn't get as much press. I don't know about that. I know plenty of people on the left that have gun 'obsessions'. I think it's just culturally unacceptable for them to talk about it. Here in Eastern Massachusetts, pretty much everybody (who doesn't tout their minority right-wing victim status on the back window of their pickup truck) will tell you they are anti-gun; but if you feel them out carefully, a good number of them will quietly admit they own guns and enjoy shooting. There are many, many hidden gun collections here.
- josephcsible 4y ago
  That sounds like a similar situation to the Abilene paradox.

techdragon 4y ago

Australia isn’t really a success at solving the underlying social issues. Except for managing to take away the guns. Which I personally believe was a massive overreaction to an event that provided convenient political capital that politicians wanted to spend so they were seen to be doing something about the tragedy. We also implemented insane gun control laws involving such bull shit as regulating gun shaped toys based on how scary they look… it’s absurd. I doubt that even with our previous level of gun ownership we would have had the same outcome either. We have a social healthcare system that at least provides some level of mental health support and our cultural relationship with guns didn’t fetishise them as implements of power. While this may have eventually changed with greater cultural homogenisation to American content via the internet, I’m unconvinced that it would have ever been the same as we see in America today. The school shooting problem is very very American and i suspect it has a lot to do with cultural contagion brought on by the 24hr news media circus whipping everyone into obsession every time there’s a tragedy.

thomasfedb 4y ago
I think the way we regard guns in Australia is important. They are dangerous objects that are either used for work, or as a hobby by a small number. To a very large extent we don't worship or slobber over them. I've fired a gun on three occasions (I was an Army Cadet, I quite enjoyed the experience) and have handled realistic replicas (backstage on set of a theater show). In both settings they're treated as risky objects. You are handed the gun, you use it, and then you hand it back to be locked up. My grandfather is the only person in my family I know who ever owned a gun. He used to keep it in the cupboard under the stairs. He handed it in to police to be destroyed long ago - he felt that he didn't need it, and that the most likely outcome of keeping it was an accident that he would regret. Personally, I'm very happy to live without guns around. If I do want to shoot, I would be able to comply with the regulations in my state fairly easily. It's a bit of paperwork but no worse than, e.g. acquiring powerful lasers, or being allowed to enter an aerodrome for flight training.
- golemiprague 4y ago

Pxtl 4y ago

The Left is more than willing to take incremental harm-reduction approaches to manage America's gun addiction instead of going cold turkey, but even that is not an option thanks to the USA's anti-democratic Senate.

Bud 4y ago

Please spend 15 seconds looking up what "the left" is actually arguing for before speaking in public about it. Because you appear to not have any idea. Hint: it's what 92-96% of the US public consistently agrees with. Background checks without loopholes, for instance.

School-Cotton 4y ago
Why do you think we don’t pass policy that >90% of people agree with? How do you propose to fix that problem? (I’ll give you my personal opinion: we can’t because of structural flaws in the US political system, and the problem is impossible to fix.)
remarkEon 4y ago
Just curious, but have you ever purchased a firearm? Background checks are standard procedure. I'm not sure what "loopholes" you are referring to. Usually this refers to private party sales. Do you want private party sales banned?
- Zak 4y ago
  People often describe the fact that there isn't a background check for private sales in most US states as a loophole. Attempts to add such a requirement in some states, such as Washington have been clumsy and burdensome but it does seem like a good idea in principle.
Auracle 4y ago
I would think that percentage would change if people knew what they were agreeing to. “Remove loopholes to get around background checks? Absolutely! Force private owners to report to the government who they sell a gun to, leading to a registry all all gun owners? Maybe not…”

throw0101a 4y ago

> The left says "no guns". The right says "more guns". How much of "the left" is actually about no guns, versus having a few hoops that you have to jump through first, à la (e.g.) Massachusetts: * https://www.vox.com/2018/11/13/17658028/massachusetts-gun-control-laws-licenses https://www.vox.com/2018/11/13/17658028/massachusetts-gun-co... Compared to: "Only in Texas: Lubbock jeweler offers free gun with engagement ring purchase": * https://www.dallasnews.com/news/texas/2016/10/25/only-in-texas-lubbock-jeweler-offers-free-gun-with-engagement-ring-purchase/ https://www.dallasnews.com/news/texas/2016/10/25/only-in-tex...

dukeofdoom 4y ago

Here in Canada the "left" liberal government made it much harder to get a gun license. Then proceeded to mandate the vaccine, fired unvaccinated employees, denied them their EI, and banned about 6 million Canadians from flying to this day. When some truckers protested, they suspended the charter. I can see how many Americans would want to hold to their guns in light of the behaviour of governments over the last few years.

9935c101ab17a66 4y ago
They didn’t “mandate the vaccines”, they required their employees to get vaccinated. If you didn’t want to receive a safe, effective vaccine that billions of people around the world have also received, you had the “freedom” to quit and find another employer. Oh, also? Has anyone actually been fired by the federal government? A cursory search shows 1800 people are on unpaid leave, but they haven’t been terminated. 1800 people out of an estimated 320k employees. Weird.

buscoquadnary 4y ago

In response to the idea that muskets were less dangerous I share the following copypasta Own a musket for home defense, since that's what the founding fathers intended. Four ruffians break into my house. "What the devil?" As I grab my powdered wig and Kentucky rifle. Blow a golf ball sized hole through the first man, he's dead on the spot. Draw my pistol on the second man, miss him entirely because it's smoothbore and nails the neighbors dog. I have to resort to the cannon mounted at the top of the stairs loaded with grape shot, "Tally ho lads" the grape shot shreds two men in the blast, the sound and extra shrapnel set off car alarms. Fix bayonet and charge the last terrified rapscallion. He Bleeds out waiting on the police to arrive since triangular bayonet wounds are impossible to stitch up. Just as the founding fathers intended.

School-Cotton 4y ago

Man, HN is brutal sometimes. I wish you hadn’t made your quip about the left saying “no guns”, because it isn’t important at all to your central point, which is that structural issues in the US prevent meaningful progress on gun control regardless of whether it’s good policy or the majority of people want it. But you have like five people responding to that “left no guns” thing specifically, instead of to your real point, which is absolutely correct and the heart of the issue.