5 ms·

I've always assumed that Tor was a top target for 3 letter agencies. In that sense, there is so much attention on it that it's kinda pointless.

by cheeze 4y ago

smm11 4y ago
Where did Tor come from, again?
- lucb1e 4y ago
  "Comments should get more thoughtful and substantive, not less, as a topic gets more divisive." https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html (Not sure a rhetorical question to make some vague accusation counts as a substantive comment)
  - ziddoap 4y ago
    It's not a "vague accusation", onion routing was developed by the US Naval Research Academy ("NRL", a 3 letter government agency). See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tor_(network)#History https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tor_(network)#History for more detail.
    - lucb1e 4y ago
      The vague accusation is that because "onion routing"[1] has roots in the military, it must have a backdoor that we haven't uncovered in decades. If the person had posted this Wikipedia link with the info you mentioned, for example, I wouldn't have thought it unsubstantial per the guidelines (even if the claim/accusation itself is unsubstantiated by the evidence, that's a difference of opinion and not a guidelines thing). [1] Not the cryptography, not even the code implementation, but just the general concept: having a message packed in several layers of encryption such that intermediate routers don't know the contents. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Onion_routing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Onion_routing
    - wolverine876 4y ago
      The entire Internet has its roots in the US military, as does ASCII.
- jakear 4y ago
  Created by the US Navy and currently majorly funded by the US Department of State, for those unaware.
tialaramex 4y ago
For any such agency, a handful of Tor nodes gives your own agents a useful secure channel. An overwhelming majority of nodes would give you good insight into what other users are doing, but it's very hard to get such a majority since of course all your competitors think the same. Putting in place a handful of nodes to benefit your own agents is very possible, so that's what you do.
- wolverine876 4y ago
  You can just hack into existing nodes. There are few enough nodes that accessing a large proportion of them is easily within the budget of a state security agency.
  - tialaramex 4y ago
    And so can all the other agencies, same consequences.
    - wolverine876 4y ago
      I don't understand: How does it protect end-user privacy if multiple state agencies, rather than just one, can access their identity and metadata?
      - tialaramex 4y ago
        No, no, at most one can obtain such dominance. Multiple state agencies can fight over control of nodes and, if one of them somehow controls enough nodes they get such information. If you're right that such agencies can afford to, I dunno, expend zero days to seize control of nodes, they're all going to do that. That doesn't magically create more nodes, just makes it harder to decide who (if anyone) controls them. The most likely outcome isn't that multiple state agencies can get this done, but that none of them can despite their fervent wishes otherwise.
        wolverine876 4y ago
0daystock 4y ago
> I've always assumed that Tor was a top target for 3 letter agencies Tor doesn't defend against a global adversary like a three-letter agency with capabilities to monitor network traffic and latency globally, panopticon-style. This is explained plainly in the Tor design spec.

I've always assumed that Tor was a top target for 3 letter agencies. In that sense, there is so much attention on it that it's kinda pointless.

by cheeze 4y ago

I've always assumed that Tor was a top target for 3 letter agencies. In that sense, there is so much attention on it that it's kinda pointless.

smm11 4y ago

Where did Tor come from, again?

lucb1e 4y ago
"Comments should get more thoughtful and substantive, not less, as a topic gets more divisive." https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html (Not sure a rhetorical question to make some vague accusation counts as a substantive comment)
- ziddoap 4y ago
  It's not a "vague accusation", onion routing was developed by the US Naval Research Academy ("NRL", a 3 letter government agency). See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tor_(network)#History https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tor_(network)#History for more detail.
  - lucb1e 4y ago
    The vague accusation is that because "onion routing"[1] has roots in the military, it must have a backdoor that we haven't uncovered in decades. If the person had posted this Wikipedia link with the info you mentioned, for example, I wouldn't have thought it unsubstantial per the guidelines (even if the claim/accusation itself is unsubstantiated by the evidence, that's a difference of opinion and not a guidelines thing). [1] Not the cryptography, not even the code implementation, but just the general concept: having a message packed in several layers of encryption such that intermediate routers don't know the contents. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Onion_routing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Onion_routing
  - wolverine876 4y ago
    The entire Internet has its roots in the US military, as does ASCII.
jakear 4y ago
Created by the US Navy and currently majorly funded by the US Department of State, for those unaware.

tialaramex 4y ago

For any such agency, a handful of Tor nodes gives your own agents a useful secure channel. An overwhelming majority of nodes would give you good insight into what other users are doing, but it's very hard to get such a majority since of course all your competitors think the same. Putting in place a handful of nodes to benefit your own agents is very possible, so that's what you do.

wolverine876 4y ago
You can just hack into existing nodes. There are few enough nodes that accessing a large proportion of them is easily within the budget of a state security agency.
- tialaramex 4y ago
  And so can all the other agencies, same consequences.
  - wolverine876 4y ago
    I don't understand: How does it protect end-user privacy if multiple state agencies, rather than just one, can access their identity and metadata?
    - tialaramex 4y ago
      No, no, at most one can obtain such dominance. Multiple state agencies can fight over control of nodes and, if one of them somehow controls enough nodes they get such information. If you're right that such agencies can afford to, I dunno, expend zero days to seize control of nodes, they're all going to do that. That doesn't magically create more nodes, just makes it harder to decide who (if anyone) controls them. The most likely outcome isn't that multiple state agencies can get this done, but that none of them can despite their fervent wishes otherwise.
      - wolverine876 4y ago

0daystock 4y ago

> I've always assumed that Tor was a top target for 3 letter agencies Tor doesn't defend against a global adversary like a three-letter agency with capabilities to monitor network traffic and latency globally, panopticon-style. This is explained plainly in the Tor design spec.