5 ms·

Google is aware that this is a big deal. It is a big deal to them as well. Search is their golden goose and they are terrified of doing anything that would brea

by whack 4y ago

Google is aware that this is a big deal. It is a big deal to them as well. Search is their golden goose and they are terrified of doing anything that would break it or worsen it. No one has ever accused the Search team of having a "move fast and break things" culture. That said, their interests aren't perfectly aligned with yours. Their main priority is producing a scalable algorithm that outputs rankings that users are happy with. If their A/B tests show that a new algorithm makes their users happier, then they will use that new algorithm (after an extremely long period of A/B testing and due diligence and gradual rollouts). The fact that your specific website is helped or hurt by their new algorithm, is not their priority. If they decided to prioritize stability over user satisfaction, I can guarantee that you, me, and most people will eventually abandon Google entirely in favor of a different search engine that gives us results that we're happier with. This is exactly why smart companies continually try to innovate and change, even if they need to break a few eggs in the process.

stingraycharles 4y ago
I agree with everything you said, but there’s one additional nuance: what may be best for the user, may not be what’s best for the business. I’d say that if there’s a general trend over the past decade, it’s that search results haven’t necessarily lead to a better user experience, but Google did a lot of fighting with spam sites, in addition to more ads / integrations with their wider ecosystem. All this makes for a lot of quality hits in the whole experience, and I totally understand the frustration of people who depend upon their rankings. I don’t think there’s a solution, though, as Google needs to keep evolving, especially to fight SEO spam that tries to game their algorithms.
dbg31415 4y ago
So why not be more transparent about what their goals are here? Nobody has to spell out specifics, but the broad strokes on what they are trying to achieve, or issues they are trying to solve, would be nice.
epolanski 4y ago
What do you mean by happiness of results, how would you measure it.
- leetcrew 4y ago
  happiness is hard to measure, but I can easily think of metrics that indicate unhappiness off the top of my head. not clicking through any of the hits, continuing to the second page of results, and retrying the same query phrased differently are all strong signals that the user was not satisfied with the results.
- tidenly 4y ago
  If you go from result-to-result, I'm pretty sure google track time spent in each one, as well as the last one you look at.
  - londons_explore 4y ago
    And the last one you look at is in most cases the one with the info you were looking for. Their algorithm pushes that result to the top for the same query in the future. The effect is quite dramatic - for a query with only two results, a single click by one user can cause those results to switch which is on top a week later.
  - epolanski 4y ago
    Doesn't that require to have analytics installed on the target website which many won't have? Without those, how can Google now how much time I am spending on a website I am visiting, e.g., from firefox? Also, why would time really matter? Say I'm trying to remember some javascript method name, and I go to various websites and the one that has the answer I close it immediately.
    - XCSme 4y ago
      Not really, having analytics on the Google search page itself is usually enough (they see the time it takes for you to go from Results page -> Website -> Back to results page).
mandeepj 4y ago
> most people will eventually abandon Google entirely in favor of a different search engine that gives us results that we're happier with. LOL! Which one?
- enos_feedler 4y ago
  That would be a funny question to ask my parents. Not sure they would have a legit answer let alone a sarcastic one.
pessimizer 4y ago
> Their main priority is producing a scalable algorithm that outputs rankings that users are happy with. Are they measuring happiness? Or are they using bad proxies for happiness, or even sometimes ignoring happiness to optimize for number of searches? An ideal search engine that delivers perfect results for everyone would be a site people only spent a few moments on. A shitty search engine with a virtual monopoly would be a place people wasted tons of their time banging their heads against. A search engine is like a door; you generally don't hang out in the doorway. edit: > most people will eventually abandon Google entirely in favor of a different search engine that gives us results that we're happier with Nobody is doing this. Not only would it take a fortune to become a contender, not only are sites required to optimize for google, but in the end google would buy and shut down any threat. You could maybe compete with google if you had state backing and could lose infinite money over infinite time, but then google would just lobby to have you banned. This is aside from the brand dominance, which would still keep google as the top search engine if the entire infrastructure of Search was thrown into a dumpster and the brand sold to people who rebuilt it from scratch with no knowledge of how it worked before.

by whack 4y ago

stingraycharles 4y ago

I agree with everything you said, but there’s one additional nuance: what may be best for the user, may not be what’s best for the business. I’d say that if there’s a general trend over the past decade, it’s that search results haven’t necessarily lead to a better user experience, but Google did a lot of fighting with spam sites, in addition to more ads / integrations with their wider ecosystem. All this makes for a lot of quality hits in the whole experience, and I totally understand the frustration of people who depend upon their rankings. I don’t think there’s a solution, though, as Google needs to keep evolving, especially to fight SEO spam that tries to game their algorithms.

dbg31415 4y ago

So why not be more transparent about what their goals are here? Nobody has to spell out specifics, but the broad strokes on what they are trying to achieve, or issues they are trying to solve, would be nice.

epolanski 4y ago

What do you mean by happiness of results, how would you measure it.

leetcrew 4y ago
happiness is hard to measure, but I can easily think of metrics that indicate unhappiness off the top of my head. not clicking through any of the hits, continuing to the second page of results, and retrying the same query phrased differently are all strong signals that the user was not satisfied with the results.
tidenly 4y ago
If you go from result-to-result, I'm pretty sure google track time spent in each one, as well as the last one you look at.
- londons_explore 4y ago
  And the last one you look at is in most cases the one with the info you were looking for. Their algorithm pushes that result to the top for the same query in the future. The effect is quite dramatic - for a query with only two results, a single click by one user can cause those results to switch which is on top a week later.
- epolanski 4y ago
  Doesn't that require to have analytics installed on the target website which many won't have? Without those, how can Google now how much time I am spending on a website I am visiting, e.g., from firefox? Also, why would time really matter? Say I'm trying to remember some javascript method name, and I go to various websites and the one that has the answer I close it immediately.
  - XCSme 4y ago
    Not really, having analytics on the Google search page itself is usually enough (they see the time it takes for you to go from Results page -> Website -> Back to results page).

mandeepj 4y ago

> most people will eventually abandon Google entirely in favor of a different search engine that gives us results that we're happier with. LOL! Which one?

enos_feedler 4y ago
That would be a funny question to ask my parents. Not sure they would have a legit answer let alone a sarcastic one.

pessimizer 4y ago

> Their main priority is producing a scalable algorithm that outputs rankings that users are happy with. Are they measuring happiness? Or are they using bad proxies for happiness, or even sometimes ignoring happiness to optimize for number of searches? An ideal search engine that delivers perfect results for everyone would be a site people only spent a few moments on. A shitty search engine with a virtual monopoly would be a place people wasted tons of their time banging their heads against. A search engine is like a door; you generally don't hang out in the doorway. edit: > most people will eventually abandon Google entirely in favor of a different search engine that gives us results that we're happier with Nobody is doing this. Not only would it take a fortune to become a contender, not only are sites required to optimize for google, but in the end google would buy and shut down any threat. You could maybe compete with google if you had state backing and could lose infinite money over infinite time, but then google would just lobby to have you banned. This is aside from the brand dominance, which would still keep google as the top search engine if the entire infrastructure of Search was thrown into a dumpster and the brand sold to people who rebuilt it from scratch with no knowledge of how it worked before.