5 ms·

If Europe and Japan can have small, cheap EVs, why can’t America?

17 points by nixass 4y ago

coldtea 4y ago
Many such American problems stem from mentality/ideology, not stuctural reasons. Someone could respond mentioning long distances and various state situations, but those valid concerns aside there are tens of millions of people in US cities with 100% the same density and driving needs as those of people in Europe and Japan, which still don't have anywhere near the same cars (not speaking about EVs specifically, but smaller cars in general too). And God Forbid they e.g. don't put their 2 kids in a SUV, because obviously you can't make do with a small car once you have a family - nevermind that's what millions of Europeans do by choice...
- Gibbon1 4y ago
  I think in the US market you got something similar to the old story about the Soviet nail factory only producing large nails because they were judged by the tons of nails produced. Manufacturers are increasing sales by making trucks and SUV's bigger more lux and more expensive. It's a death spiral. Amusing idea require anything over 2 tons stay in the right lane except to pass.
jleyank 4y ago
Same reason the smart cars disappeared. I recall talk of a smart mini suv for the us market that went nowhere. Didn’t ford stop making all cars aside from the mustang?
- dharmab 4y ago
  In the US, yes, the only vehicle Ford sells that is not an SUV or truck is the Mustang.
  - pjmlp 4y ago
    Meanwhile Fiestas are everywhere in Europe.
geophile 4y ago
I think that we're thinking about EVs all wrong. There is this expectation that an EV is basically a car that runs on electricity instead of gasoline. Home charging is a nice feature, but if you stray from home, you have to figure out where to charge, and how long you can spend charging there. Tesla has built a BMW-level car, in terms of styling, features, and comfort. There are competitors, increasingly from traditional carmakers, but they are all building the same style of car: the look and feel of a gasoline-powered car that runs on electricity. Of course, given America's (insane) attachment to pickup trucks, those are getting the electric treatment too. But it's the same idea: take the gasoline powered vehicle, and design an EV to mirror it, to be as familiar as possible. But think about how PCs replaced minicomputers and mainframes. These little joke computers that IBM and CDC and DEC and HP and Burroughs and Data General did not take seriously finally killed those companies (except for IBM, and HP bears no resemblance to what it used to be). The PCs didn't become replacements for minis and mainframes, they provided a completely different model of computing that eventually won out thanks to rapid hardware improvements, software improvements made possible by rapidly improving hardware, and importantly, a new generation of computer users, who were not brainwashed into the old way of thinking about computing. I look at electric bikes as being the analog of the PC. I doubt that many car manufacturers look at these things as competition. But they are. If you are young, you need to travel ten miles to work, you are crushed by student debt, and you have some concern about climate issues, an electric bike is awfully appealing. Yes, the weather needs to cooperate, but it's a pretty small step from the electric bikes we have now, to slightly more protected machines that work in inclement weather. What about longer drives? EVs (i.e., Tesla and their ilk) aren't so great there either. Range anxiety is real, recharging takes way more than 5 minutes (even with level 3 chargers), and good like finding one on your random road trip. You have to plan it in advance. Completing the analogy: gasoline cars are like mainframes, and EVs as they currently exist are analogous to minicomputers. They will cease to exist in 20 years. They'll be displaced on the low end by electric bikes, and they cannot compete on the high end (long trips) with gasoline-powered cars.
- polka_haunts_us 4y ago
  Pretty much this, we don't have small electric cars because we don't have small cars period. I used to own a 2000 Nissan Frontier, didn't even bother considering a truck for my new car not because I dislike truck ownership conceptually even if I should, but because the smallest new truck you can buy in 2022 is noticeably larger than that one. For a replacement, I was considering a Honda Fit (Jazz in Europe). Too late for me, not for sale new in the US anymore (along with every other subcompact model), and I couldn't find one to my preference used in my area. I ended up getting a Civic Hatch. If Americans on the whole liked small cars, we'd have small cars. Obviously, we either don't, or there's a very exploitable market gap there for some venture capitalist to exploit. If I had to put money on it though, I'd guess the former.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
dingleberry 4y ago
small car (passenger) can't be categorized as truck (commercial); therefore, subject to more stringent requirements making it more costly to make
toomuchtodo 4y ago
Because Americans want large vehicles.
- bediger4000 4y ago
  That's right! Americans have freedom, and personal responsibility, so we have big SUVs. Real Americans also 4-wheel in beautiful wilderness, which weak europeans do not have.
  - quantified 4y ago
    Sarcasm, or not?
    - jfengel 4y ago
      Pretty sure it's sarcasm, since few Americans ever use their SUVs off-road (and most SUVs wouldn't actually be very good for it anyway). They sell those SUVs with images of bold adventures that almost nobody actually does. Still... yeah, there were somewhat clearer ways to make the joke.
Proven 4y ago
neighbour 4y ago
I always thought the answer to this was fairly simple. USA, like Australia, is a vast, open country with plenty of space and wide roads whereas Europe and Japan are (mostly) the opposite. Bigger space = bigger cars.
vlark 4y ago
Because Americans like their big dumb cars to drive their big dumb fat asses half a block to check the mail or to go to the drive thru at McWendy's Carlsburgers.

17 points by nixass 4y ago

Many such American problems stem from mentality/ideology, not stuctural reasons. Someone could respond mentioning long distances and various state situations, but those valid concerns aside there are tens of millions of people in US cities with 100% the same density and driving needs as those of people in Europe and Japan, which still don't have anywhere near the same cars (not speaking about EVs specifically, but smaller cars in general too). And God Forbid they e.g. don't put their 2 kids in a SUV, because obviously you can't make do with a small car once you have a family - nevermind that's what millions of Europeans do by choice...

Gibbon1 4y ago
I think in the US market you got something similar to the old story about the Soviet nail factory only producing large nails because they were judged by the tons of nails produced. Manufacturers are increasing sales by making trucks and SUV's bigger more lux and more expensive. It's a death spiral. Amusing idea require anything over 2 tons stay in the right lane except to pass.

jleyank 4y ago

Same reason the smart cars disappeared. I recall talk of a smart mini suv for the us market that went nowhere. Didn’t ford stop making all cars aside from the mustang?

dharmab 4y ago
In the US, yes, the only vehicle Ford sells that is not an SUV or truck is the Mustang.
- pjmlp 4y ago
  Meanwhile Fiestas are everywhere in Europe.

geophile 4y ago

I think that we're thinking about EVs all wrong. There is this expectation that an EV is basically a car that runs on electricity instead of gasoline. Home charging is a nice feature, but if you stray from home, you have to figure out where to charge, and how long you can spend charging there. Tesla has built a BMW-level car, in terms of styling, features, and comfort. There are competitors, increasingly from traditional carmakers, but they are all building the same style of car: the look and feel of a gasoline-powered car that runs on electricity. Of course, given America's (insane) attachment to pickup trucks, those are getting the electric treatment too. But it's the same idea: take the gasoline powered vehicle, and design an EV to mirror it, to be as familiar as possible. But think about how PCs replaced minicomputers and mainframes. These little joke computers that IBM and CDC and DEC and HP and Burroughs and Data General did not take seriously finally killed those companies (except for IBM, and HP bears no resemblance to what it used to be). The PCs didn't become replacements for minis and mainframes, they provided a completely different model of computing that eventually won out thanks to rapid hardware improvements, software improvements made possible by rapidly improving hardware, and importantly, a new generation of computer users, who were not brainwashed into the old way of thinking about computing. I look at electric bikes as being the analog of the PC. I doubt that many car manufacturers look at these things as competition. But they are. If you are young, you need to travel ten miles to work, you are crushed by student debt, and you have some concern about climate issues, an electric bike is awfully appealing. Yes, the weather needs to cooperate, but it's a pretty small step from the electric bikes we have now, to slightly more protected machines that work in inclement weather. What about longer drives? EVs (i.e., Tesla and their ilk) aren't so great there either. Range anxiety is real, recharging takes way more than 5 minutes (even with level 3 chargers), and good like finding one on your random road trip. You have to plan it in advance. Completing the analogy: gasoline cars are like mainframes, and EVs as they currently exist are analogous to minicomputers. They will cease to exist in 20 years. They'll be displaced on the low end by electric bikes, and they cannot compete on the high end (long trips) with gasoline-powered cars.

polka_haunts_us 4y ago
Pretty much this, we don't have small electric cars because we don't have small cars period. I used to own a 2000 Nissan Frontier, didn't even bother considering a truck for my new car not because I dislike truck ownership conceptually even if I should, but because the smallest new truck you can buy in 2022 is noticeably larger than that one. For a replacement, I was considering a Honda Fit (Jazz in Europe). Too late for me, not for sale new in the US anymore (along with every other subcompact model), and I couldn't find one to my preference used in my area. I ended up getting a Civic Hatch. If Americans on the whole liked small cars, we'd have small cars. Obviously, we either don't, or there's a very exploitable market gap there for some venture capitalist to exploit. If I had to put money on it though, I'd guess the former.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

dingleberry 4y ago

small car (passenger) can't be categorized as truck (commercial); therefore, subject to more stringent requirements making it more costly to make

toomuchtodo 4y ago

Because Americans want large vehicles.

bediger4000 4y ago
That's right! Americans have freedom, and personal responsibility, so we have big SUVs. Real Americans also 4-wheel in beautiful wilderness, which weak europeans do not have.
- quantified 4y ago
  Sarcasm, or not?
  - jfengel 4y ago
    Pretty sure it's sarcasm, since few Americans ever use their SUVs off-road (and most SUVs wouldn't actually be very good for it anyway). They sell those SUVs with images of bold adventures that almost nobody actually does. Still... yeah, there were somewhat clearer ways to make the joke.

Proven 4y ago

neighbour 4y ago

I always thought the answer to this was fairly simple. USA, like Australia, is a vast, open country with plenty of space and wide roads whereas Europe and Japan are (mostly) the opposite. Bigger space = bigger cars.

vlark 4y ago

Because Americans like their big dumb cars to drive their big dumb fat asses half a block to check the mail or to go to the drive thru at McWendy's Carlsburgers.