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"but no one is willing to invest equivalent resources towards training and mentorship" There are companies and teams but you may have to dig deep. I would love

"but no one is willing to invest equivalent resources towards training and mentorship" There are companies and teams but you may have to dig deep. I would love to hire an entry level person for our small bootstrapped SAAS company but I run into some problems whenever I am interviewing someone entry level for web application development: - They overvalue their salary requirements. I may get flak for this but I don't care. Just because you have completed a "bootcamp", you cannot ask for a salary that is FAANG level. - They think they know more than they really do. I have interviewed a lot of entry level especially bootcampers who can write a app.get('/', (req, res) but have no idea how a GET request actually works. Most cannot tell me the difference between http header and body. But they surely know how to send an ajax request through code. Fundamentals people, fundamentals. - A lot of them are unfortunately sold on the idea of frameworks to begin with and they start parroting things like "React or Svelte" but cannot write a simple javascript or an HTML form. Many cannot tell me how a form gets submitted from the client and processed through a server. Many have never written a <form> by hand. - They are entitled just because they have a github (which mostly is a fork of a project or blank stuff) - They don't really spend the time learning on their own. This is the biggest thing for me. You need to try and stand out from rest. doing a copied pasted github react project won't help especially when you don't understand the fundamentals. - They don't want to compromise on "fully remote" even though they would be better off learning in person. I am sounding rude here but just stating facts. I love to work with people who are entry level so I can teach them but unfortunately you want to be taught before you can be taught. These days, not so much. I would rather have you tell me that you want to learn but don't know much vs telling me how you can build a web app in Svelte but cannot answer basic http questions. I can smell bullshit from a mile because I have been doing this for 19 years now.

futhey 4y ago
I've been trying to understand for the past 2-3 years who is hiring people with only Github projects forked with some nonsensical updates. I assume it's spam or tricking some very inexperienced non-technical sourcers.
- ev1 4y ago
  when I interview people I frequently get people with a "packed" github that's obvious they used one of those tools to make their entire GH heatmap green, dozens of forks of all the largest projects with no changes, just to "look" impressive
lcnPylGDnU4H9OF 4y ago
> I am sounding rude here but just stating facts. It doesn't seem like these are really rude things to say. Perhaps it could be argued that these things are mistaken but I wouldn't think its rude for someone to point them out. (I guess, to your point, they could sound rude. I don't think they do!) FWIW, none of those things are really desirable so it is a bit of a shame if it is truly so common to see them. Especially the first point is really just about being pragmatic, not even necessarily related to web application development.
the__alchemist 4y ago
> - They think they know more than they really do. I have interviewed a lot of entry level especially bootcampers who can write a app.get('/', (req, res) but have no idea how a GET request actually works. Most cannot tell me the difference between http header and body. But they surely know how to send an ajax request through code. Fundamentals people, fundamentals. I like your points, but want to dig a little deeper here. If someone is writing a new program, do they really need to know how the GET request works at the level you post, and the difference between header and body? You could write websites or applications, front and backend, let a framework like Django handle that, and this lack of knowledge wouldn't get in the way. My main point: How deep should the knowledge well stop? Does the interviewer who expects this deeper knowledge of how HTTP works also expect the candidate to know deeper network levels? How a TCP header is set up? An IP header? Ethernet? How to program the firmware/software that goes into an MCU or OS using a HAL or other abstraction? What about the volatile register reads and writes required? What if they have no idea, but can tell you if they wanted that info, they'd look it up on MDN, or pull up a browser's network tab or Wireshark? I would argue you could justify stopping before the fundamental level you exist, or not consider it enough, depending on job requirements.
- livinglist 4y ago
  understanding of protocols might be an overhaul for junior frontend engineers especially for those who come from bootcamps but I do think they should not be entield to think they deserve fang level salary… and stop thinking that being a software engineer is as easy as making and hosting a single web page with html and css… my wish is that bootcamps can start making students really interested in software engineering, and not constrained to web development.
- tharkun__ 4y ago
  Not the OP here. If someone is writing a new program, do they really need to know how the GET request works at the level you post, and the difference between header and body? I think this is actually quite important to know "enough" about. Should I expect you to know all the headers out there? No. I also don't know everything that's around nowadays. Should you I be able to expect that you know the basics of how a request works, the fact that there are headers and bodies and query params and what's different between get and post in those regards? Oh absolutely. Like the OP says, fundamentals. If you know the fundamentals of the split between headers and body you can dig into the specific ones when needed. Do I remember the exact way content transfer encoding stuff works w/ chunking in all details and edge cases? No. But I have enough fundamental understanding of how HTTP works that I can understand when I google it. also expect the candidate to know deeper network levels? How a TCP header is set up? An IP header? Ethernet? I think it's important to understand the basics of networking unless you're literally someone that just does CSS. You should have a basic understanding of a TCP connection. Do you need to be able to tell me anything about SYN/SYN-ACK/ACK? No. Should you know that DNS exists to turn the names we all use into IP addresses and that computers actually create connections between systems using those IP addresses and ports? Absolutely! Do I expect that someone from a bootcamp knows any of this? No, but that's also why I don't like even considering bootcamp people. Been there, burned by that. For a backend person, even if entry level? Oh yes you better know some TCP/IP. Do you need to be able to recite what a TCP or IP header look like from memory? Of course not, I couldn't tell you either any more. Should you be able to tell me that TCP is implemented on top of IP and you can use one without the other? Maybe not for an entry level person. What if they have no idea, but can tell you if they wanted that info, they'd look it up on MDN, or pull up a browser's network tab or Wireshark? If someone tells me they know what wireshark is, they're basically hired (yeah sure I'd also still make sure they didn't just pick up the word and know their TCP after that but I bet you the signal to noise ratio on that is pretty good.

futhey 4y ago

I've been trying to understand for the past 2-3 years who is hiring people with only Github projects forked with some nonsensical updates. I assume it's spam or tricking some very inexperienced non-technical sourcers.

ev1 4y ago
when I interview people I frequently get people with a "packed" github that's obvious they used one of those tools to make their entire GH heatmap green, dozens of forks of all the largest projects with no changes, just to "look" impressive

lcnPylGDnU4H9OF 4y ago

> I am sounding rude here but just stating facts. It doesn't seem like these are really rude things to say. Perhaps it could be argued that these things are mistaken but I wouldn't think its rude for someone to point them out. (I guess, to your point, they could sound rude. I don't think they do!) FWIW, none of those things are really desirable so it is a bit of a shame if it is truly so common to see them. Especially the first point is really just about being pragmatic, not even necessarily related to web application development.

the__alchemist 4y ago

> - They think they know more than they really do. I have interviewed a lot of entry level especially bootcampers who can write a app.get('/', (req, res) but have no idea how a GET request actually works. Most cannot tell me the difference between http header and body. But they surely know how to send an ajax request through code. Fundamentals people, fundamentals. I like your points, but want to dig a little deeper here. If someone is writing a new program, do they really need to know how the GET request works at the level you post, and the difference between header and body? You could write websites or applications, front and backend, let a framework like Django handle that, and this lack of knowledge wouldn't get in the way. My main point: How deep should the knowledge well stop? Does the interviewer who expects this deeper knowledge of how HTTP works also expect the candidate to know deeper network levels? How a TCP header is set up? An IP header? Ethernet? How to program the firmware/software that goes into an MCU or OS using a HAL or other abstraction? What about the volatile register reads and writes required? What if they have no idea, but can tell you if they wanted that info, they'd look it up on MDN, or pull up a browser's network tab or Wireshark? I would argue you could justify stopping before the fundamental level you exist, or not consider it enough, depending on job requirements.

livinglist 4y ago
understanding of protocols might be an overhaul for junior frontend engineers especially for those who come from bootcamps but I do think they should not be entield to think they deserve fang level salary… and stop thinking that being a software engineer is as easy as making and hosting a single web page with html and css… my wish is that bootcamps can start making students really interested in software engineering, and not constrained to web development.
tharkun__ 4y ago
Not the OP here. If someone is writing a new program, do they really need to know how the GET request works at the level you post, and the difference between header and body? I think this is actually quite important to know "enough" about. Should I expect you to know all the headers out there? No. I also don't know everything that's around nowadays. Should you I be able to expect that you know the basics of how a request works, the fact that there are headers and bodies and query params and what's different between get and post in those regards? Oh absolutely. Like the OP says, fundamentals. If you know the fundamentals of the split between headers and body you can dig into the specific ones when needed. Do I remember the exact way content transfer encoding stuff works w/ chunking in all details and edge cases? No. But I have enough fundamental understanding of how HTTP works that I can understand when I google it. also expect the candidate to know deeper network levels? How a TCP header is set up? An IP header? Ethernet? I think it's important to understand the basics of networking unless you're literally someone that just does CSS. You should have a basic understanding of a TCP connection. Do you need to be able to tell me anything about SYN/SYN-ACK/ACK? No. Should you know that DNS exists to turn the names we all use into IP addresses and that computers actually create connections between systems using those IP addresses and ports? Absolutely! Do I expect that someone from a bootcamp knows any of this? No, but that's also why I don't like even considering bootcamp people. Been there, burned by that. For a backend person, even if entry level? Oh yes you better know some TCP/IP. Do you need to be able to recite what a TCP or IP header look like from memory? Of course not, I couldn't tell you either any more. Should you be able to tell me that TCP is implemented on top of IP and you can use one without the other? Maybe not for an entry level person. What if they have no idea, but can tell you if they wanted that info, they'd look it up on MDN, or pull up a browser's network tab or Wireshark? If someone tells me they know what wireshark is, they're basically hired (yeah sure I'd also still make sure they didn't just pick up the word and know their TCP after that but I bet you the signal to noise ratio on that is pretty good.