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I just love this narrative that someone who has lived their whole life with a fraught relationship with banks, overdrafting regularly, having trouble keeping th

I just love this narrative that someone who has lived their whole life with a fraught relationship with banks, overdrafting regularly, having trouble keeping their life in order, etc. will suddenly have the organization and forethought to walk into a bank, ask to speak with a manager, and be able to credibly promise that they want to fix this relationship. I'm not saying people can't change, but it's naive as hell to think that they will on a dime such as you suggest.

jhartwig 4y ago
Thanks for being a realist! I was thinking the same thing.
- hyperdimension 4y ago
  I'm apt to be that cynical as well, but if what the original commenter said is true, that provides me with a little hope. It's so easy to slip through the cracks in the system, so to speak. A sudden medical bill or car problems, for instance. I realized on my drive to work today that my car is the only thing keeping me from poverty. Luckily, I have tools in the back and would probably be able to fix it myself. :) Also, once you're in it, you're in it, and it's a strong cycle. You don't always have the luxury of things we often take for granted like having a nice outfit to wear, reliable transportation to an interview, and finally not even having a mailing address if you even end up getting a job offer. It's like the places that offer a free shower and "nice" outfit (for an interview) to homeless people. Sometimes all it takes is that little boost to get (to be sure, the right person with the right attitude) someone back on their feet. I've luckily never been in that situation, but I can empathize and understand how a completely ordinary person could quickly end up there.
ARandomerDude 4y ago
It's not a narrative, it's my life experience. I saw it first hand, many times, which is why I commented. Sadly, there are many who will not become more responsible with time. But there are also many who will, and I'm glad to have been able to play the smallest role in helping people who genuinely want a fresh start.
- TameAntelope 4y ago
  Sorry I didn't mean to suggest what you had said didn't happen, I very much believe you that people came in and said those words. What I have a harder time believing, and not just in this situation but in a lot of conversations about the unbanked, is that these people will, after a lifetime of having problems with the banking system, suddenly "see the light" and start behaving in ways that are compatible with that same banking system. This "fresh start" seems like the bad narrative, to me. I believe people seek it, and I believe they're hopeful about it, but I don't believe it's realistic to just assume. I definitely want to live in a world where people can choose to change, but suggesting that they actually will do that is, to me, not realistic. I feel like a more effective approach would be to change how the banking system works, but I imagine that comes with a myriad of undesirable costs.
  - bluefirebrand 4y ago
    > I feel like a more effective approach would be to change how the banking system works, but I imagine that comes with a myriad of undesirable costs. It seems likely to me that people who can't navigate the current banking system at a basic level would struggle with any banking system you introduce. Or just any system in general.
  - digisign 4y ago
    This is very "fixed" mindset you're applying to others. Some portion of the populace grows up every year. There should be a path to re/build your life once that happens.
HideousKojima 4y ago
Well if they can't get their shit together long enough to do something like that then this credit score system for checking accounts sounds perfectly reasonable to me.
- TameAntelope 4y ago
  I've been thinking about this a lot, and I think this is a good example of how we could do better as a society; some people who can't get checking accounts definitely can't handle the responsibility. Most of these people however, handle responsibility 10x as complex as this on a regular basis, and something is missing, either in a lack of shared cultural values (a lot of the unbanked are foreigners I think), or a lack of understanding of consequences (how many times have you heard the "I didn't know I'd fall down this well of overdraft fees"?). In other words, the people involved usually are trustworthy in a generic "is it safe to bank with them", they're just not plugging into the system in a way that fits the defaults. I'd almost argue that the banking system ought to be more flexible to maximize its compatibility with as many people as possible, and thus far hasn't because of the drive to maximize certainty and minimize all forms of risk. I have no answers or real solid ideas for how to do this, but "it's all on them" doesn't quite feel right. These are (mostly) good people who will pay you back if you lend them money, and that should matter! I think my comment got construed as "people can't change so it's all their fault" and I meant it more as, "financial systems should be willing to move closer to where these people are already at, and stop demanding these people make all the changes." I also don't know how feasible that is, so... IDK! Just thinking via writing, I guess.
7speter 4y ago
Also these institutions have protocols set up so as not to be able to see any “manager” at a given location. Hell in New York, it seems that a lot of inner city brick and mortar banking locations are becoming atm kiosks with maybe 1 or 2 employees there… not as tellers but instead to help with using the atms.
- throwaheyy 4y ago
  That would be because they have so many locations. You could walk down the street and around the corner to find another one. Or are you saying that a bank manager is actually hard to find in NYC?
  - 7speter 4y ago
    NYC isn’t only manhattan island
- gkop 4y ago
  Ironically, I’ve seen “kiosks-only” at one bank branch in the Bay Area, and it was a local credit union.

jhartwig 4y ago

Thanks for being a realist! I was thinking the same thing.

hyperdimension 4y ago
I'm apt to be that cynical as well, but if what the original commenter said is true, that provides me with a little hope. It's so easy to slip through the cracks in the system, so to speak. A sudden medical bill or car problems, for instance. I realized on my drive to work today that my car is the only thing keeping me from poverty. Luckily, I have tools in the back and would probably be able to fix it myself. :) Also, once you're in it, you're in it, and it's a strong cycle. You don't always have the luxury of things we often take for granted like having a nice outfit to wear, reliable transportation to an interview, and finally not even having a mailing address if you even end up getting a job offer. It's like the places that offer a free shower and "nice" outfit (for an interview) to homeless people. Sometimes all it takes is that little boost to get (to be sure, the right person with the right attitude) someone back on their feet. I've luckily never been in that situation, but I can empathize and understand how a completely ordinary person could quickly end up there.

ARandomerDude 4y ago

It's not a narrative, it's my life experience. I saw it first hand, many times, which is why I commented. Sadly, there are many who will not become more responsible with time. But there are also many who will, and I'm glad to have been able to play the smallest role in helping people who genuinely want a fresh start.

TameAntelope 4y ago
Sorry I didn't mean to suggest what you had said didn't happen, I very much believe you that people came in and said those words. What I have a harder time believing, and not just in this situation but in a lot of conversations about the unbanked, is that these people will, after a lifetime of having problems with the banking system, suddenly "see the light" and start behaving in ways that are compatible with that same banking system. This "fresh start" seems like the bad narrative, to me. I believe people seek it, and I believe they're hopeful about it, but I don't believe it's realistic to just assume. I definitely want to live in a world where people can choose to change, but suggesting that they actually will do that is, to me, not realistic. I feel like a more effective approach would be to change how the banking system works, but I imagine that comes with a myriad of undesirable costs.
- bluefirebrand 4y ago
  > I feel like a more effective approach would be to change how the banking system works, but I imagine that comes with a myriad of undesirable costs. It seems likely to me that people who can't navigate the current banking system at a basic level would struggle with any banking system you introduce. Or just any system in general.
- digisign 4y ago
  This is very "fixed" mindset you're applying to others. Some portion of the populace grows up every year. There should be a path to re/build your life once that happens.

HideousKojima 4y ago

Well if they can't get their shit together long enough to do something like that then this credit score system for checking accounts sounds perfectly reasonable to me.

TameAntelope 4y ago
I've been thinking about this a lot, and I think this is a good example of how we could do better as a society; some people who can't get checking accounts definitely can't handle the responsibility. Most of these people however, handle responsibility 10x as complex as this on a regular basis, and something is missing, either in a lack of shared cultural values (a lot of the unbanked are foreigners I think), or a lack of understanding of consequences (how many times have you heard the "I didn't know I'd fall down this well of overdraft fees"?). In other words, the people involved usually are trustworthy in a generic "is it safe to bank with them", they're just not plugging into the system in a way that fits the defaults. I'd almost argue that the banking system ought to be more flexible to maximize its compatibility with as many people as possible, and thus far hasn't because of the drive to maximize certainty and minimize all forms of risk. I have no answers or real solid ideas for how to do this, but "it's all on them" doesn't quite feel right. These are (mostly) good people who will pay you back if you lend them money, and that should matter! I think my comment got construed as "people can't change so it's all their fault" and I meant it more as, "financial systems should be willing to move closer to where these people are already at, and stop demanding these people make all the changes." I also don't know how feasible that is, so... IDK! Just thinking via writing, I guess.

7speter 4y ago

Also these institutions have protocols set up so as not to be able to see any “manager” at a given location. Hell in New York, it seems that a lot of inner city brick and mortar banking locations are becoming atm kiosks with maybe 1 or 2 employees there… not as tellers but instead to help with using the atms.

throwaheyy 4y ago
That would be because they have so many locations. You could walk down the street and around the corner to find another one. Or are you saying that a bank manager is actually hard to find in NYC?
- 7speter 4y ago
  NYC isn’t only manhattan island
gkop 4y ago
Ironically, I’ve seen “kiosks-only” at one bank branch in the Bay Area, and it was a local credit union.