5 ms·

Zettelkasten, linking your thinking, and Nick Milo's search for ground

124 points by taurusnoises 4y ago

SkyMarshal 4y ago
Linking Your Thinking (what the article is about) [1] also has a good YouTube channel teaching its methodology with Obsidian [2]. I also like this guide on simplicity in Zettelkasten [3]. TLDR: the benefits of Zettelkasten don’t increase with complexity. [1]:https://www.linkingyourthinking.com/ https://www.linkingyourthinking.com/ [2]:https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC85D7ERwhke7wVqskV_DZUA/playlists https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC85D7ERwhke7wVqskV_DZUA/pla... [3]:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E6ySG7xYgjY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E6ySG7xYgjY
for_i_in_range 4y ago
You nailed it with this piece. The goal of Niklas Luhmann (Zettelkasten) = written output (tangible). The goal of Nik Milo (LYT) = contemplation (intangible). Niklas Luhmann didn't partake in PKM; he did Analog Knowledge Development. He did this in order to write and produce—specifically in creating a thirty-year theory of everything for sociology. For the past year, I've been teaching how Luhmann's workflow actually worked (using his same tools—pen and notecards). Here's my YouTube channel which may help understand his workflow: https://youtu.be/YfMNwusO6fk https://youtu.be/YfMNwusO6fk Update: I didn't realize this was you who wrote this, Bob! You already know about me so I didn't need to post my stuff and continue to advertise myself everywhere (like I can't help but do!)
- taurusnoises 4y ago
  It's me, dude! :) (and thanks for reading!)
  - for_i_in_range 4y ago
    Haha, I just realized (I updated my initial post). I'll post this on Antinet Reddit now.
    - taurusnoises 4y ago
      Oh, by all means, advert. We all hustlin.
DevX101 4y ago
Linking Your Thinking was overly complicated system that introduced levels of abstractions in order to have a catchy framework the author can explain for a 6-week $1200 course: A.C.C.E.S.S. Despite the this post's claims, it's basically Zettelkasten with additional folders for your projects, and Maps of Contents (notes about large topic areas). That said, the free LYT Kit 6, has a really beautiful theme and default plugins for Obsidian and I use it as a starter-kit after deleting all the folders. Seconding the other comment that this 16 minute video will get you 95% of the way there. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E6ySG7xYgjY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E6ySG7xYgjY One app I can really recommend is Readwise for anyone building a linked knowledge system. It's a great way to ingest all the content you come across (Tweets, books, articles, podcasts) into a single place, and become your source of truth. Then using the Readwise plugin, this can populate your raw reference notes in your Obsidian vault.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
kurupt213 4y ago
I don’t know how I never came across this before yesterday’s post.
ad404b8a372f2b9 4y ago
PKM: Personal knowledge management
jklinger410 4y ago
Warning: Slightly Off Topic. I use Obsidian, which has Zettelkasten capabilities built in (I think). But I don't use those capabilities. I just write things in daily notes as they come to mind, and use the search in order to find every mention of a given topic. I have never felt more empowered by a writing system in my life. I think the key is to avoid complexity at all costs, and empower through search. I could add complexity on my end, of course, and properly tag and organize things. But what if we introduced a low-level AI/Machine Learning plugin that could enrich the search function and determine tangential topics and intent? Then you could just dump your brain into a text box and sort it out later. This is the way.
- for_i_in_range 4y ago
  I don't believe it has Zettelkasten capabilities built in. You're referring to the Zettelkasten ID toggle button. In actuality, that ID was invented by the creators of Zettelkasten.de (people who I like, though disagree with on several points—I'm an analog diehard); these socalled Zettelkasten IDs are prepended with a timestamp. That's all. The originator of Zettelkasten, Niklas Luhmann, did not use these types of IDs at all. Unfortunately this confusion now has forked Zettelkasten into two different systems, yet they use the same term. IMO, the digital Zettelkasten should be rebranded "Hyperlinked Notes". And the term Zettelkasten should refer to the analog notebox system Luhmann used. But I don't run the world, so that's what we're stuck with. For this reason I adopted the term Antinet to dilineate. (Antinet Zettelkasten).
kevinslin 4y ago
Zettelkasten was a tool designed for a very specific purpose but of late, is the proverbial hammer that is being applied to everything. As the founder of a note taking tool (dendron.so), I see lots of new users trying out PKM for the first time because they heard about zettelkastenw hen all they needed was a bullet journal instead. This is my first time coming across LYT - thanks for the writeup!
- taurusnoises 4y ago
  Thanks so much for reading. I hear great things about Dendron from those who use (and swear by) it.
  - kevinslin 4y ago
    Thanks :)
- kstrauser 4y ago
  I was very interested in Zettelkasten, and bought "How to Take Smart Notes". I may be one of the few people who didn't like it: it was sorely in need of an editor and could have been 1/4th the size with the same amount of information, and I think it should've been called "Why to Take Smart Notes". I wanted a how-to guide, but got a persuasion piece on why I should want to do the thing I was already interested enough in that I bought a book to learn how to do it. Anyway, as interesting as it is, I don't see any way Zettelkasten is useful to me specifically. I get how it could be amazing for others, particularly authors, but I want knowledge retrieval more than knowledge synthesis. Basically, I need a personal wiki. I've found LYT, especially its Maps Of Content, to be an excellent resource for organizing the million and one things I want to drop into a PKM and be able to find later. For me, a web of information is much more useful than a serialization.
  - toma_caliente 4y ago
    I read the book and found it delivered as advertised. If you were looking for a step-by-step guide then yes that is not what you got but I found it explaine, even excessively so at times, "how to take smart notes."
shepherdjerred 4y ago
Do people really go all-in with these systems? Is it worth the steep investment?
- epolanski 4y ago
  I have tried some. They never stuck and felt more of chores than frameworks. I think that the first thing you need to clarify is the goal of your notes and then try some relevant system and adapt it.
- azeirah 4y ago
  Obsidian is not complicated, it's a markdown editor with optional plugins. The workflows people imagine around them are complicated. I use it in a way that is similar to the 16 minute video posted elsewhere in this thread, and it works well for me. Biggest benefits for me are: 1. Finding references, before using obsidian I would recall reading something somewhere but would be unable to find the so source 2. I remember stuff I write about better. I use it a lot for work, software engineering, so I summarize new ideas and concepts as notes which makes it so much easier to remember and understand The important part of that is that it forces me to break ideas down into manageable chunks. I can't make a note about "everything you need to know about react 18", but I can make a note about "React 18's useTransition hook prioritizes rendering of user input". 3. It's fun! I've always enjoyed writing, and always enjoyed customizing editors and IDEs, obsidian is a great fit for that. It's exclusively for so writing and organization, so now I have two main programs, my coding editor and my writing editor. 4. The program also just works really really well. Evernote is bloated and has weird updates, emacs is insanely complicated and maybe just a little bit too powerful? Roam and friends are too chaotic for me, I don't function well with 0 structure. All simple markdown programs I used lacked good syncing, although sublime text with Dropbox came close. But obsidian just syncs perfectly, and has a very performant application on all devices I use, and yes I'm crazy enough to use all three of windows, Linux and Mac os as well as mobile... I like variety Still, a lot of what obsidian does can be achieved with alternatives. Sublime works well with Dropbox, if you're in the apple ecosystem then Apple notes is great! Regular text editors or traditional note taking apps are still very viable. In the end it's about what you do. If you are a knowledge worker, or even more particularly a researcher/ academic you need a good solution for organizing your references, notes, ideas etc. Obsidian is a great choice for that. Otherwise don't bother unless you find it fun or interesting.
xydinesh 4y ago
I think any note taking or PKM doesn't fit everyone's need 100%. We have to adopt a system and make changes to match our needs. I too started with Zettlekasten but the system I am using now doesn't follow atomic notes at all.

124 points by taurusnoises 4y ago

Linking Your Thinking (what the article is about) [1] also has a good YouTube channel teaching its methodology with Obsidian [2]. I also like this guide on simplicity in Zettelkasten [3]. TLDR: the benefits of Zettelkasten don’t increase with complexity. [1]:https://www.linkingyourthinking.com/ https://www.linkingyourthinking.com/ [2]:https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC85D7ERwhke7wVqskV_DZUA/playlists https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC85D7ERwhke7wVqskV_DZUA/pla... [3]:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E6ySG7xYgjY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E6ySG7xYgjY

for_i_in_range 4y ago

You nailed it with this piece. The goal of Niklas Luhmann (Zettelkasten) = written output (tangible). The goal of Nik Milo (LYT) = contemplation (intangible). Niklas Luhmann didn't partake in PKM; he did Analog Knowledge Development. He did this in order to write and produce—specifically in creating a thirty-year theory of everything for sociology. For the past year, I've been teaching how Luhmann's workflow actually worked (using his same tools—pen and notecards). Here's my YouTube channel which may help understand his workflow: https://youtu.be/YfMNwusO6fk https://youtu.be/YfMNwusO6fk Update: I didn't realize this was you who wrote this, Bob! You already know about me so I didn't need to post my stuff and continue to advertise myself everywhere (like I can't help but do!)

taurusnoises 4y ago
It's me, dude! :) (and thanks for reading!)
- for_i_in_range 4y ago
  Haha, I just realized (I updated my initial post). I'll post this on Antinet Reddit now.
  - taurusnoises 4y ago
    Oh, by all means, advert. We all hustlin.

DevX101 4y ago

Linking Your Thinking was overly complicated system that introduced levels of abstractions in order to have a catchy framework the author can explain for a 6-week $1200 course: A.C.C.E.S.S. Despite the this post's claims, it's basically Zettelkasten with additional folders for your projects, and Maps of Contents (notes about large topic areas). That said, the free LYT Kit 6, has a really beautiful theme and default plugins for Obsidian and I use it as a starter-kit after deleting all the folders. Seconding the other comment that this 16 minute video will get you 95% of the way there. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E6ySG7xYgjY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E6ySG7xYgjY One app I can really recommend is Readwise for anyone building a linked knowledge system. It's a great way to ingest all the content you come across (Tweets, books, articles, podcasts) into a single place, and become your source of truth. Then using the Readwise plugin, this can populate your raw reference notes in your Obsidian vault.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

kurupt213 4y ago

I don’t know how I never came across this before yesterday’s post.

ad404b8a372f2b9 4y ago

PKM: Personal knowledge management

jklinger410 4y ago

Warning: Slightly Off Topic. I use Obsidian, which has Zettelkasten capabilities built in (I think). But I don't use those capabilities. I just write things in daily notes as they come to mind, and use the search in order to find every mention of a given topic. I have never felt more empowered by a writing system in my life. I think the key is to avoid complexity at all costs, and empower through search. I could add complexity on my end, of course, and properly tag and organize things. But what if we introduced a low-level AI/Machine Learning plugin that could enrich the search function and determine tangential topics and intent? Then you could just dump your brain into a text box and sort it out later. This is the way.

for_i_in_range 4y ago
I don't believe it has Zettelkasten capabilities built in. You're referring to the Zettelkasten ID toggle button. In actuality, that ID was invented by the creators of Zettelkasten.de (people who I like, though disagree with on several points—I'm an analog diehard); these socalled Zettelkasten IDs are prepended with a timestamp. That's all. The originator of Zettelkasten, Niklas Luhmann, did not use these types of IDs at all. Unfortunately this confusion now has forked Zettelkasten into two different systems, yet they use the same term. IMO, the digital Zettelkasten should be rebranded "Hyperlinked Notes". And the term Zettelkasten should refer to the analog notebox system Luhmann used. But I don't run the world, so that's what we're stuck with. For this reason I adopted the term Antinet to dilineate. (Antinet Zettelkasten).

kevinslin 4y ago

Zettelkasten was a tool designed for a very specific purpose but of late, is the proverbial hammer that is being applied to everything. As the founder of a note taking tool (dendron.so), I see lots of new users trying out PKM for the first time because they heard about zettelkastenw hen all they needed was a bullet journal instead. This is my first time coming across LYT - thanks for the writeup!

taurusnoises 4y ago
Thanks so much for reading. I hear great things about Dendron from those who use (and swear by) it.
- kevinslin 4y ago
  Thanks :)
kstrauser 4y ago
I was very interested in Zettelkasten, and bought "How to Take Smart Notes". I may be one of the few people who didn't like it: it was sorely in need of an editor and could have been 1/4th the size with the same amount of information, and I think it should've been called "Why to Take Smart Notes". I wanted a how-to guide, but got a persuasion piece on why I should want to do the thing I was already interested enough in that I bought a book to learn how to do it. Anyway, as interesting as it is, I don't see any way Zettelkasten is useful to me specifically. I get how it could be amazing for others, particularly authors, but I want knowledge retrieval more than knowledge synthesis. Basically, I need a personal wiki. I've found LYT, especially its Maps Of Content, to be an excellent resource for organizing the million and one things I want to drop into a PKM and be able to find later. For me, a web of information is much more useful than a serialization.
- toma_caliente 4y ago
  I read the book and found it delivered as advertised. If you were looking for a step-by-step guide then yes that is not what you got but I found it explaine, even excessively so at times, "how to take smart notes."

shepherdjerred 4y ago

Do people really go all-in with these systems? Is it worth the steep investment?

epolanski 4y ago
I have tried some. They never stuck and felt more of chores than frameworks. I think that the first thing you need to clarify is the goal of your notes and then try some relevant system and adapt it.
azeirah 4y ago
Obsidian is not complicated, it's a markdown editor with optional plugins. The workflows people imagine around them are complicated. I use it in a way that is similar to the 16 minute video posted elsewhere in this thread, and it works well for me. Biggest benefits for me are: 1. Finding references, before using obsidian I would recall reading something somewhere but would be unable to find the so source 2. I remember stuff I write about better. I use it a lot for work, software engineering, so I summarize new ideas and concepts as notes which makes it so much easier to remember and understand The important part of that is that it forces me to break ideas down into manageable chunks. I can't make a note about "everything you need to know about react 18", but I can make a note about "React 18's useTransition hook prioritizes rendering of user input". 3. It's fun! I've always enjoyed writing, and always enjoyed customizing editors and IDEs, obsidian is a great fit for that. It's exclusively for so writing and organization, so now I have two main programs, my coding editor and my writing editor. 4. The program also just works really really well. Evernote is bloated and has weird updates, emacs is insanely complicated and maybe just a little bit too powerful? Roam and friends are too chaotic for me, I don't function well with 0 structure. All simple markdown programs I used lacked good syncing, although sublime text with Dropbox came close. But obsidian just syncs perfectly, and has a very performant application on all devices I use, and yes I'm crazy enough to use all three of windows, Linux and Mac os as well as mobile... I like variety Still, a lot of what obsidian does can be achieved with alternatives. Sublime works well with Dropbox, if you're in the apple ecosystem then Apple notes is great! Regular text editors or traditional note taking apps are still very viable. In the end it's about what you do. If you are a knowledge worker, or even more particularly a researcher/ academic you need a good solution for organizing your references, notes, ideas etc. Obsidian is a great choice for that. Otherwise don't bother unless you find it fun or interesting.

xydinesh 4y ago

I think any note taking or PKM doesn't fit everyone's need 100%. We have to adopt a system and make changes to match our needs. I too started with Zettlekasten but the system I am using now doesn't follow atomic notes at all.