4 ms·

The point is to have fair representation. If a 30% fanatical minority can get a 100% clean slate for its candidates by voting strategically, AV fails. In a sin

The point is to have fair representation. If a 30% fanatical minority can get a 100% clean slate for its candidates by voting strategically, AV fails. In a single winner election AV makes coordination among moderates somewhat easier, so it's an improvement, but still inferior to Ranked Choice/STV with multi-member districts.

CarVac 4y ago
This probably is a difference in PoV based on how many of your elections are multi-winner versus single-winner. I was mostly thinking about single-winner elections because the big headline elections in the US are all single-winner.
jjitz 4y ago
AV is great for a single winner. As you have noticed, if you elect multiple winners the "naive" way then you can get unproportional outcomes. However, there are simple ways to use approval to elect winners proportionally! One easy example is this one https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sequential_proportional_approval_voting https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sequential_proportional_approv...
ClayShentrup 4y ago
Approval voting gets very good results even under asymmetrical strategy. https://rpubs.com/Jameson-Quinn/VSE5key https://rpubs.com/Jameson-Quinn/VSE5key Your scenario is unrealistic because real humans aren't that tightly clustered, so you get defectors. And people vote strategically. The winning position is the centroid. https://www.rangevoting.org/AppCW https://www.rangevoting.org/AppCW It is not known whether proportional representation can compete with the best single winner voting methods. We don't have enough data and we can't do multi-winter Bayesian regret calculations confidently. Here's an article you really should read if you think proportion representation is the answer. https://www.rangevoting.org/PropRep https://www.rangevoting.org/PropRep
- jjitz 4y ago
  There is a litany of research showing that proportional representation leads to more representative and stable democracies, both in terms of empirical outcomes and normative political theory. Saying we don't have enough data just because some borderline-crackpot blogger doesn't like it is pretty disingenuous.
  - ClayShentrup 4y ago
    Here's a compilation of the best expert research, arguing for and against PR. https://www.rangevoting.org/PropRep https://www.rangevoting.org/PropRep A. The research compares proportional (PR) methods to plurality voting, the worst single-winner voting method there is. But superior methods like score voting and approval voting roughly double the accuracy (i.e. group welfare) compared to plurality voting. So no, there's no research showing the superiority of PR to these methods. B. Even in that limited comparison, of PR to plurality voting, the data still is actually not that clear. For instance, Canada uses plurality voting rather than PR, and is rated as one of the most high functioning democracies by The Economist. Meanwhile lots of proportional democracies are far worse than plurality countries. Compare proportional Brazil (and several other Latin countries) to non-proportional UK, Canada, and USA.
- manholio 4y ago
  > It is not known whether proportional representation can compete with the best single winner voting methods. I don't know the metric you are using here, but it is surely purely academic, as the rest of your comment. The idea that a single candidate can better represent a smaller (and usually gerrymandered) district than a larger number of diverse candidates in a larger district flies in the face of everything we know about real democracies and party systems. > Your scenario is unrealistic because real humans aren't that tightly clustered, so you get defectors. Again, theoretical claims against real world experience. I've experienced polarization in AV to the point where center becomes a wasted vote, and people are incentivized to support one of the two dominant slates.
  - ClayShentrup 4y ago
    > The idea that a single candidate can better represent a smaller (and usually gerrymandered) district than a larger number of diverse candidates in a larger district flies in the face of everything we know about real democracies and party systems. This is simply not correct. Elections are a form of statistical sampling, and with a good single-winner voting method, all voters of every stripe affect the centroid position, "tugging" it left, right, etc. Which you can see graphically depicted here. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-4FXLQoLDBA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-4FXLQoLDBA > Again, theoretical claims against real world experience. You're not citing any real world data that contradicts my argument. > I've experienced polarization in AV to the point where center becomes a wasted vote, and people are incentivized to support one of the two dominant slates. If you mean "alternative vote" (known to experts like myself as "Instant Runoff Voting"), note that I'm not advocating that. I'm advocating cardinal methods such as score voting and approval voting. Which tend to elect broadly appealing centrists. https://www.rangevoting.org/IrvExtreme https://www.rangevoting.org/IrvExtreme
  - ZeroGravitas 4y ago
    Approval voting has a single winner, which seems to not be the scenario you are talking about. Perhaps you were using one of these variants. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiwinner_approval_voting https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiwinner_approval_voting You should probably specify to avoid confusion.

CarVac 4y ago

This probably is a difference in PoV based on how many of your elections are multi-winner versus single-winner. I was mostly thinking about single-winner elections because the big headline elections in the US are all single-winner.

jjitz 4y ago

AV is great for a single winner. As you have noticed, if you elect multiple winners the "naive" way then you can get unproportional outcomes. However, there are simple ways to use approval to elect winners proportionally! One easy example is this one https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sequential_proportional_approval_voting https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sequential_proportional_approv...

ClayShentrup 4y ago

Approval voting gets very good results even under asymmetrical strategy. https://rpubs.com/Jameson-Quinn/VSE5key https://rpubs.com/Jameson-Quinn/VSE5key Your scenario is unrealistic because real humans aren't that tightly clustered, so you get defectors. And people vote strategically. The winning position is the centroid. https://www.rangevoting.org/AppCW https://www.rangevoting.org/AppCW It is not known whether proportional representation can compete with the best single winner voting methods. We don't have enough data and we can't do multi-winter Bayesian regret calculations confidently. Here's an article you really should read if you think proportion representation is the answer. https://www.rangevoting.org/PropRep https://www.rangevoting.org/PropRep

jjitz 4y ago
There is a litany of research showing that proportional representation leads to more representative and stable democracies, both in terms of empirical outcomes and normative political theory. Saying we don't have enough data just because some borderline-crackpot blogger doesn't like it is pretty disingenuous.
- ClayShentrup 4y ago
  Here's a compilation of the best expert research, arguing for and against PR. https://www.rangevoting.org/PropRep https://www.rangevoting.org/PropRep A. The research compares proportional (PR) methods to plurality voting, the worst single-winner voting method there is. But superior methods like score voting and approval voting roughly double the accuracy (i.e. group welfare) compared to plurality voting. So no, there's no research showing the superiority of PR to these methods. B. Even in that limited comparison, of PR to plurality voting, the data still is actually not that clear. For instance, Canada uses plurality voting rather than PR, and is rated as one of the most high functioning democracies by The Economist. Meanwhile lots of proportional democracies are far worse than plurality countries. Compare proportional Brazil (and several other Latin countries) to non-proportional UK, Canada, and USA.
manholio 4y ago
> It is not known whether proportional representation can compete with the best single winner voting methods. I don't know the metric you are using here, but it is surely purely academic, as the rest of your comment. The idea that a single candidate can better represent a smaller (and usually gerrymandered) district than a larger number of diverse candidates in a larger district flies in the face of everything we know about real democracies and party systems. > Your scenario is unrealistic because real humans aren't that tightly clustered, so you get defectors. Again, theoretical claims against real world experience. I've experienced polarization in AV to the point where center becomes a wasted vote, and people are incentivized to support one of the two dominant slates.
- ClayShentrup 4y ago
  > The idea that a single candidate can better represent a smaller (and usually gerrymandered) district than a larger number of diverse candidates in a larger district flies in the face of everything we know about real democracies and party systems. This is simply not correct. Elections are a form of statistical sampling, and with a good single-winner voting method, all voters of every stripe affect the centroid position, "tugging" it left, right, etc. Which you can see graphically depicted here. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-4FXLQoLDBA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-4FXLQoLDBA > Again, theoretical claims against real world experience. You're not citing any real world data that contradicts my argument. > I've experienced polarization in AV to the point where center becomes a wasted vote, and people are incentivized to support one of the two dominant slates. If you mean "alternative vote" (known to experts like myself as "Instant Runoff Voting"), note that I'm not advocating that. I'm advocating cardinal methods such as score voting and approval voting. Which tend to elect broadly appealing centrists. https://www.rangevoting.org/IrvExtreme https://www.rangevoting.org/IrvExtreme
- ZeroGravitas 4y ago
  Approval voting has a single winner, which seems to not be the scenario you are talking about. Perhaps you were using one of these variants. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiwinner_approval_voting https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiwinner_approval_voting You should probably specify to avoid confusion.