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I was about to point out the obscene creditor friendliness of Norway when I saw you extolling the virtues of our credit system, so I'm glad you did it first. Th

by marvin 4y ago

I was about to point out the obscene creditor friendliness of Norway when I saw you extolling the virtues of our credit system, so I'm glad you did it first. The part of fairly tracking poor payment history is good, the rest, not so much. We effectively have a form of wage slavery by law. If a person has debts that are unpayably big and is not (or no longer) eligible for the once-each-lifetime-only "personal bankruptcy", where one signs a contract to pay all property and incomes for five years towards one's debts before the remaining is erased, one is on the hook for the remaining debt for the rest of one's life. No recourse. Economic damage judgements in court do not qualify even for the five-year 100% garnishment contract. Someone impacted by this has no incentive to work ever again, because everything they earn above the survival minimum will be garnished. I'd hazard a guess that most of them end up on welfare. So it's not all good, unfortunately. I mentioned social unity punishments in our culture in a different thread the other day; this is another example of that.

gruez 4y ago
>If a person has debts that are unpayably big and is not (or no longer) eligible for the once-each-lifetime-only "personal bankruptcy" source for bankruptcy being "once-each-lifetime-only"? A quick search says that's false: https://www.findlaw.com/bankruptcy/after-bankruptcy/how-often-can-you-file-for-bankruptcy-.html https://www.findlaw.com/bankruptcy/after-bankruptcy/how-ofte...
- kleinsch 4y ago
  They’re talking about Norway, which doesn’t follow US bankruptcy code.
- TrackerFF 4y ago
  He's was quoting me and referring to here in Norway, not US - where it is very much a one-time deal. Over here, we can't really just "declare bankruptcy", it's a very lengthy process - which takes years. It's more like a court ordered program where the debtor and creditor agrees that the debtor is going to pay as much as possible towards the debt owed, for the next N years, and after that - all debt is erased. You're allowed to keep just enough of your salary to cover the most basic living expenses, everything else goes to the creditor. This also means not being credit worthy, which in turn could mean no cellphone plan, no insurance, no mortgage, no auto loans, no consumer loans, etc. Everything you buy, you have to buy with cash up-front. From start to finish, all that could take 5-10 years. And before you even sign a contract where you and the creditor agrees upon such a plan, the debt collection agencies are probably hounding you down on a daily basis, making whatever debt you had to begin with N times more expensive. The good news is that when you've held up your end of the agreement, it's gone. But you only get once chance. If you - for whatever reason, any reason at all - end up in the same situation, you're practically a debt slave. Which could mean wage/welfare garnishments for the rest of your life. This is especially true if you have multiple debt collection agencies bogging down individual debts with added and compounding fees. But to be fair, this is not normal. Very few end up being two-time losers - but sadly it could be entrepreneurs and small business owners, if they haven't structured their companies the right way.
  - buescher 4y ago
    When you hear Europeans get horrified that in the USA a medical problem (or whatever) could drive you into bankruptcy, this is the context. They are usually more horrified than you might realize, because there is a bit of miscommunication going on. Can you inherit debt in Norway? You can in Germany. You don't in the USA. Can you as a Norwegian declare bankruptcy in the UK or is that off the table now that they're out of the EU?
    - krastanov 4y ago
      Would it matter that UK is not in the EU given that Norway is also not in the EU?
      - buescher 4y ago
        Oops. Well I suppose there’s that. I’ll add that I have no idea how “bankruptcy tourism” works, other than that people do it. It’s odd that one can do it at all.
    - marvin 4y ago
      > Can you inherit debt in Norway? You can, but it would be voluntary. Inheritors can choose all assets and all debts, or nothing. Unsure about the bankruptcy tourism idea. I'm pretty sure it would take many years. Moving countries for tax purposes, for instance, takes five years for all obligations to clear.
- kube-system 4y ago
  The US has very forgiving bankruptcy code, notably so. Much of the world is less forgiving.

by marvin 4y ago

gruez 4y ago

>If a person has debts that are unpayably big and is not (or no longer) eligible for the once-each-lifetime-only "personal bankruptcy" source for bankruptcy being "once-each-lifetime-only"? A quick search says that's false: https://www.findlaw.com/bankruptcy/after-bankruptcy/how-often-can-you-file-for-bankruptcy-.html https://www.findlaw.com/bankruptcy/after-bankruptcy/how-ofte...

kleinsch 4y ago
They’re talking about Norway, which doesn’t follow US bankruptcy code.
TrackerFF 4y ago
He's was quoting me and referring to here in Norway, not US - where it is very much a one-time deal. Over here, we can't really just "declare bankruptcy", it's a very lengthy process - which takes years. It's more like a court ordered program where the debtor and creditor agrees that the debtor is going to pay as much as possible towards the debt owed, for the next N years, and after that - all debt is erased. You're allowed to keep just enough of your salary to cover the most basic living expenses, everything else goes to the creditor. This also means not being credit worthy, which in turn could mean no cellphone plan, no insurance, no mortgage, no auto loans, no consumer loans, etc. Everything you buy, you have to buy with cash up-front. From start to finish, all that could take 5-10 years. And before you even sign a contract where you and the creditor agrees upon such a plan, the debt collection agencies are probably hounding you down on a daily basis, making whatever debt you had to begin with N times more expensive. The good news is that when you've held up your end of the agreement, it's gone. But you only get once chance. If you - for whatever reason, any reason at all - end up in the same situation, you're practically a debt slave. Which could mean wage/welfare garnishments for the rest of your life. This is especially true if you have multiple debt collection agencies bogging down individual debts with added and compounding fees. But to be fair, this is not normal. Very few end up being two-time losers - but sadly it could be entrepreneurs and small business owners, if they haven't structured their companies the right way.
- buescher 4y ago
  When you hear Europeans get horrified that in the USA a medical problem (or whatever) could drive you into bankruptcy, this is the context. They are usually more horrified than you might realize, because there is a bit of miscommunication going on. Can you inherit debt in Norway? You can in Germany. You don't in the USA. Can you as a Norwegian declare bankruptcy in the UK or is that off the table now that they're out of the EU?
  - krastanov 4y ago
    Would it matter that UK is not in the EU given that Norway is also not in the EU?
    - buescher 4y ago
      Oops. Well I suppose there’s that. I’ll add that I have no idea how “bankruptcy tourism” works, other than that people do it. It’s odd that one can do it at all.
  - marvin 4y ago
    > Can you inherit debt in Norway? You can, but it would be voluntary. Inheritors can choose all assets and all debts, or nothing. Unsure about the bankruptcy tourism idea. I'm pretty sure it would take many years. Moving countries for tax purposes, for instance, takes five years for all obligations to clear.
kube-system 4y ago
The US has very forgiving bankruptcy code, notably so. Much of the world is less forgiving.