5 ms·

Nearly all of what you say is true. However, you neglect to mention that it all applies to pedestrians as well, and drivers of course have their own version of

Nearly all of what you say is true. However, you neglect to mention that it all applies to pedestrians as well, and drivers of course have their own version of each. I have observed (and swerved to avoid) many pedestrians who don't use crosswalks, ignore crossing signals (it is not OK to start walking when the "don't walk" is flashing") , and walk right in front of bicycles in a bike lane with a green light, all because, you know, rules don't apply to pedestrians. A 90kg man crossing the street is not something you want to run into when you're cycling. Cyclists don't "win" that collision in the same way a car wins a collision with either. Many pedestrians happily clog lanes that are clearly designated for cycling only, despite a clearly marked pedestrian lane being 3 feet to the left or right. (Vassar street in cambridge, MA is my favorite example of this.) Next time you get upset about rouge bikers, remember to look around for rouge pedestrians too. I know I have to, because they sure as heck aren't looking where they're going...

afterburner 15y ago
Exactly, a thousand times this. We don't go around wishing there were no sidewalks just because pedestrians jaywalk, do we? When I see a cyclist run a stop sign in front of me (and I always watch for this to happen), I think to myself: "if that was a pedestrian, they wouldn't have even had to stop at all, and would have taken a lot longer to cross leaving me waiting longer... so why be annoyed?" But perhaps I can say this more easily because I both drive and cycle in a busy downtown area. God forbid any of these picky, sensitive, rage-filled drivers drive in a country where not even cars follow simple rules like "staying in the lane"...
ww520 15y ago
Does two wrongs make a right? Does pedestrian not using crosswalks give license for a biker to blow pass a red light?
- stouset 15y ago
  Most people here are arguing that it isn't even wrong. If nobody's coming, you have clear visibility and lines of sight, there's absolutely no rational argument for this behavior being a "dangerous" action on behalf of either cyclists or pedestrians. And before you start, it's not even remotely comparable for a car. In a car, you're essentially in a sensory-deprivation chamber, and you're several feet farther from the intersection — the difference this makes to your situational awareness is impossible to overstate. On a bike, I have full range of vision, full hearing faculties (ride a bike for awhile, you'll be amazed at how much situational awareness you have from your ears alone), and the danger I pose to others in case of a misdjudgment is miniscule: either I'm the one who gets plastered by a car, or in the case of an unexpected pedestrian, my stopping distance is perhaps three feet. I've done this for years and haven't had so much as a close call. On the other hand, I'm _far_ more concerned about pedestrians who step out into the road without looking because they don't hear a car coming. On the Georgia State campus, this happens to me maybe once a week. In short, the time and effort devoted to this topic is nothing short of insane given the miniscule numbers of people affected. The number of people killed by _safe and lawful_ drivers per passenger-mile, per passenger-trip, or any other weighted measure is absolutely staggering compared to even the most dangerous cyclists out there.
  - ww520 15y ago
    If bikers blow red light with no one on around, people won't be complaining about them since they won't be there to witness it. People are complaining because clearly they saw bikers doing it in their vicinity.
    - stouset 15y ago
      Vicinity can include cars behind cyclists who do this perfectly safely. But your point is completely irrelevant regardless. The existence of people who blow through red lights regardless of oncoming traffic does not make people who carefully and deliberately go through a red light with no oncoming traffic dangerous.
      - ww520 15y ago
        You are basically saying that bikers are such super road warriors that they don't have to obey traffic laws since they are all aware of their surrounding. Then don't get mad when car drivers ignore you and run you off the road since they don't expect you are not following the rules.
        stouset 15y ago
        Not that you've been listening, but I'm saying that the risk to others posed by cyclists and pedestrians doing the equivalent of jaywalking is minuscule compared to the dangers we as a society tolerate from cars day after day. Making as big a deal of it as you have been is insane. Your thinking is no different than those who argue that vaccines are dangerous due to increased incidence of autism. Even _if_ it were true, its importance is still overwhelmed by the sheer number of lives saved compared to the alternative.

afterburner 15y ago

Exactly, a thousand times this. We don't go around wishing there were no sidewalks just because pedestrians jaywalk, do we? When I see a cyclist run a stop sign in front of me (and I always watch for this to happen), I think to myself: "if that was a pedestrian, they wouldn't have even had to stop at all, and would have taken a lot longer to cross leaving me waiting longer... so why be annoyed?" But perhaps I can say this more easily because I both drive and cycle in a busy downtown area. God forbid any of these picky, sensitive, rage-filled drivers drive in a country where not even cars follow simple rules like "staying in the lane"...

ww520 15y ago

Does two wrongs make a right? Does pedestrian not using crosswalks give license for a biker to blow pass a red light?

stouset 15y ago
Most people here are arguing that it isn't even wrong. If nobody's coming, you have clear visibility and lines of sight, there's absolutely no rational argument for this behavior being a "dangerous" action on behalf of either cyclists or pedestrians. And before you start, it's not even remotely comparable for a car. In a car, you're essentially in a sensory-deprivation chamber, and you're several feet farther from the intersection — the difference this makes to your situational awareness is impossible to overstate. On a bike, I have full range of vision, full hearing faculties (ride a bike for awhile, you'll be amazed at how much situational awareness you have from your ears alone), and the danger I pose to others in case of a misdjudgment is miniscule: either I'm the one who gets plastered by a car, or in the case of an unexpected pedestrian, my stopping distance is perhaps three feet. I've done this for years and haven't had so much as a close call. On the other hand, I'm _far_ more concerned about pedestrians who step out into the road without looking because they don't hear a car coming. On the Georgia State campus, this happens to me maybe once a week. In short, the time and effort devoted to this topic is nothing short of insane given the miniscule numbers of people affected. The number of people killed by _safe and lawful_ drivers per passenger-mile, per passenger-trip, or any other weighted measure is absolutely staggering compared to even the most dangerous cyclists out there.
- ww520 15y ago
  If bikers blow red light with no one on around, people won't be complaining about them since they won't be there to witness it. People are complaining because clearly they saw bikers doing it in their vicinity.
  - stouset 15y ago
    Vicinity can include cars behind cyclists who do this perfectly safely. But your point is completely irrelevant regardless. The existence of people who blow through red lights regardless of oncoming traffic does not make people who carefully and deliberately go through a red light with no oncoming traffic dangerous.
    - ww520 15y ago
      You are basically saying that bikers are such super road warriors that they don't have to obey traffic laws since they are all aware of their surrounding. Then don't get mad when car drivers ignore you and run you off the road since they don't expect you are not following the rules.
      - stouset 15y ago
        Not that you've been listening, but I'm saying that the risk to others posed by cyclists and pedestrians doing the equivalent of jaywalking is minuscule compared to the dangers we as a society tolerate from cars day after day. Making as big a deal of it as you have been is insane. Your thinking is no different than those who argue that vaccines are dangerous due to increased incidence of autism. Even _if_ it were true, its importance is still overwhelmed by the sheer number of lives saved compared to the alternative.