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> I'm curious about what arguments are brought by those resisting the gun laws. I think it's said quite commonly that they never works as intended, those who w

> I'm curious about what arguments are brought by those resisting the gun laws. I think it's said quite commonly that they never works as intended, those who will procure guns for illegal use will always have access, and it will only hinder those who do so via legal means. It makes sense, there are more firearms in the US than their are citizens, which grows every quarter as it's one of the things the US manufactures at scale and often better than most developed nations. But Switzerland also has the same ratio, the thing is their citizens enjoy some of the best prospects as a Society and have the highest standards of living in all of Europe. And yet... suicide amongst the youth remains high. Furthermore, things like Ghostguns are over blown in terms of over all numbers, but it further enforces that you cannot stop technology from outpacing Laws: 3d printing AR lower receivers ensures that you will never be able solve it and will only over-regulate for those who wish to do so by legal means and likely make the black market grow.

cameldrv 4y ago
I agree that gangs and criminals will find ways to illegally acquire guns. However, a large majority of the mass shootings have happened with legally purchased guns. In the Uvalde shooting today, everything was purchased completely legally. In the Buffalo shooting, the gun was purchased legally. The high capacity magazine was illegal to possess in New York, but it is legal to purchase and possess in Pennsylvania. All you have to do is drive an hour south and you can buy one with no checks of any kind, and no one would ever know you had it. In both cases, the police response was hindered by the shooter wearing body armor that could not be penetrated by the police officers' pistols. The body armor is completely legal to purchase with no checks whatsoever.
- choko 4y ago
  A large majority of firearm deaths are gang related and not mass shootings in public schools or otherwise. The cases you point out are statistic outliers.
- Melting_Harps 4y ago
  > In both cases, the police response was hindered by the shooter wearing body armor that could not be penetrated by the police officers' pistols. The body armor is completely legal to purchase with no checks whatsoever. So, you're making my point for me: it's already too late to curtail the supply of these things in the Market, legal or otherwise, what is needed is to address the overwhelming obvious fact that these people need mental health help. It's easy to point at Laws and say they're not doing enough, and that is a slippery slope, but even when we do attempt to legislate morality it never ends well since Life is messy and things outside the modeling always occur. I'm an advocate for stronger checks in the system, but that doesn't necessarily yield the desired result we are all looking for which is a decrease in gun related crimes by what are clearly mentally disturbed people. The same thing happened in the Boulder King Soopers shooting shortly after I left which is the same thing that happened almost 21 years before in Columbine: they can be procured legally but fall into the wrong hands all the same. Hell, there is a joke in Germany that if you want a gun all you have to do is sneak into Swiss persons home since there are so many guns there, too. My point is you cannot legislate morality, all you an do is educate your populace and ensure that people who need help have access to it as long-term that pays off more than any Law ever could.
  - cameldrv 4y ago
    Just because it’s possible to buy a gun on the black market doesn’t mean a potential mass shooter would go there. They may not know who to contact or have the social skills to negotiate the transaction, or they may not have the money. Just as an illustrative example, it’s possible to buy fully automatic weapons on the black market but I don’t think i’ve seen a single case of a mass shooter doing this.
tjansen 4y ago
> those who will procure guns for illegal use will always have access That's true for criminals, but what about distressed students? I could imagine that increasing friction would at least result in less deadly weapons being used. School massacres in Europe tend to be less deadly because the attackers are using knifes or self-made explosives that seldom work.
- Melting_Harps 4y ago
  > That's true for criminals, but what about distressed students? I could imagine that increasing friction would at least result in less deadly weapons being used. See the Columbine massacre, that quite frankly put school shootings into the American psyche. Its not that easy, making firearms more difficult to get is something that should occur: closing loops on fire arm sells at conventions with no screening etc... but this alone won't stop the bigger issue, which I still remain convinced is a mental health issue. People forget that even before school shootings, 'going postal' was a thing that referred to same thing occurring.
deleted 4y ago
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cameldrv 4y ago

I agree that gangs and criminals will find ways to illegally acquire guns. However, a large majority of the mass shootings have happened with legally purchased guns. In the Uvalde shooting today, everything was purchased completely legally. In the Buffalo shooting, the gun was purchased legally. The high capacity magazine was illegal to possess in New York, but it is legal to purchase and possess in Pennsylvania. All you have to do is drive an hour south and you can buy one with no checks of any kind, and no one would ever know you had it. In both cases, the police response was hindered by the shooter wearing body armor that could not be penetrated by the police officers' pistols. The body armor is completely legal to purchase with no checks whatsoever.

choko 4y ago
A large majority of firearm deaths are gang related and not mass shootings in public schools or otherwise. The cases you point out are statistic outliers.
Melting_Harps 4y ago
> In both cases, the police response was hindered by the shooter wearing body armor that could not be penetrated by the police officers' pistols. The body armor is completely legal to purchase with no checks whatsoever. So, you're making my point for me: it's already too late to curtail the supply of these things in the Market, legal or otherwise, what is needed is to address the overwhelming obvious fact that these people need mental health help. It's easy to point at Laws and say they're not doing enough, and that is a slippery slope, but even when we do attempt to legislate morality it never ends well since Life is messy and things outside the modeling always occur. I'm an advocate for stronger checks in the system, but that doesn't necessarily yield the desired result we are all looking for which is a decrease in gun related crimes by what are clearly mentally disturbed people. The same thing happened in the Boulder King Soopers shooting shortly after I left which is the same thing that happened almost 21 years before in Columbine: they can be procured legally but fall into the wrong hands all the same. Hell, there is a joke in Germany that if you want a gun all you have to do is sneak into Swiss persons home since there are so many guns there, too. My point is you cannot legislate morality, all you an do is educate your populace and ensure that people who need help have access to it as long-term that pays off more than any Law ever could.
- cameldrv 4y ago
  Just because it’s possible to buy a gun on the black market doesn’t mean a potential mass shooter would go there. They may not know who to contact or have the social skills to negotiate the transaction, or they may not have the money. Just as an illustrative example, it’s possible to buy fully automatic weapons on the black market but I don’t think i’ve seen a single case of a mass shooter doing this.

tjansen 4y ago

> those who will procure guns for illegal use will always have access That's true for criminals, but what about distressed students? I could imagine that increasing friction would at least result in less deadly weapons being used. School massacres in Europe tend to be less deadly because the attackers are using knifes or self-made explosives that seldom work.

Melting_Harps 4y ago
> That's true for criminals, but what about distressed students? I could imagine that increasing friction would at least result in less deadly weapons being used. See the Columbine massacre, that quite frankly put school shootings into the American psyche. Its not that easy, making firearms more difficult to get is something that should occur: closing loops on fire arm sells at conventions with no screening etc... but this alone won't stop the bigger issue, which I still remain convinced is a mental health issue. People forget that even before school shootings, 'going postal' was a thing that referred to same thing occurring.

deleted 4y ago

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