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> In one, you can make fantastic money but the interviews are famously difficult, the culture can be borderline abusive, and layoffs are a way of life. These g

> In one, you can make fantastic money but the interviews are famously difficult, the culture can be borderline abusive, and layoffs are a way of life. These generalizations are untrue for a lot of companies, and for a lot of teams. Software companies, even FAANGs, can be very relaxed and comfortable places to work. It all really depends on the team -- and you can end up with an abusive boss in any industry. Job security depends on the nature of the recession. In 2008 a lot of government employees in California (and probably other states) got furloughed without pay for a while because the state government basically ran out of money. Also, the pay difference for software engineers at tech and non-tech companies is not small. It's at least 4X, often more. If you work at an established tech company for several years and you aren't totally irresponsible, you will be able to save enough money to live for a long time without an income -- even while paying a Silicon Valley mortgage.

ineptech 4y ago
Of course these are generalizations. "All models are wrong, but some are useful." I'm sure there are some laid-back jobs at startups and some stressful jobs at the Minnesota Dept. of Transportation, but I also think it is generally fair to say that those are less common than the opposite.
- ineptech 4y ago
  To explain this more clearly: what I'm trying to say is that the different parts of the software industry seem more like a bimodal distribution than a smooth one. If you think broadly of the extremes in software jobs (say, "fresh college grads making $250k+ to use cutting-edge frameworks to build a 'doordash for pet food' app" on the one hand, and "SE3s making $120k to add features to a jankety legacy application that gets manually deployed once every three months" on the other), thinking of those as separate industries is a more useful mental model than thinking of them as two ends of the same industry. I thought this was relevant because one is more recession-proof than the other, but that's hardly the only way that they're different. So my point probably came across muddled because I was referring to a larger distinction in the industry without describing it very well.
dragonwriter 4y ago
> Software companies, even FAANGs, can be very relaxed and comfortable places to work And government can be very not relaxed, in both the same and different ways to high-pressure industry jobs.
- rhexs 4y ago
  Sure, but that's going to be about as rare as finding a mythical high pay, low stress, 0 pip job in famously negative companies. They absolutely exist, but there's almost no point in talking about them.
  - twblalock 4y ago
    This is untrue in my experience. I know several people who have worked as software engineers for local governments in California for the better part of a decade. Both of them had previously worked for large tech companies which you have definitely heard of. They both preferred the work environment of the private sector and there was a lot of stress in their government jobs over the same things that stress people out anywhere: interpersonal relations, bad management, deadlines, projects going off the rails, etc. That stress was harder to deal with than it should have been, at those government jobs, because the environment is less flexible and a lot of the coworkers are, shall we say, not exactly top talent and underperformers stick around until they retire -- a PIP process would have been very handy! The level of drama at those jobs, over things that would be considered minor issues where I work, was unreasonable. On the contrary, I have been at a large tech company for almost 5 years and I usually stop working between 5 and 6pm. I see the parking lot empty out around the time I'm leaving, so I know it's not just me. I've worked on a weekend twice, and one of those times I volunteered to do it. I have never been on call. I work in an org that employs hundreds of engineers and I know that most of them have a good work-life balance too -- and those who work on the high pressure teams have chosen to do so.
  - dragonwriter 4y ago
    > > And government can be very not relaxed, in both the same and different ways to high-pressure industry jobs. > Sure, but that’s going to be about as rare as finding a mythical high pay, low stress, 0 pip job in famously negative companies. T If you think its hard to find, I suspect you haven’t worked in or around government much.
leeoniya 4y ago
> It's at least 4X, often more. i'd say, often 2X, sometimes more. 4x would be a case of being drastically underpaid.

ineptech 4y ago

Of course these are generalizations. "All models are wrong, but some are useful." I'm sure there are some laid-back jobs at startups and some stressful jobs at the Minnesota Dept. of Transportation, but I also think it is generally fair to say that those are less common than the opposite.

ineptech 4y ago
To explain this more clearly: what I'm trying to say is that the different parts of the software industry seem more like a bimodal distribution than a smooth one. If you think broadly of the extremes in software jobs (say, "fresh college grads making $250k+ to use cutting-edge frameworks to build a 'doordash for pet food' app" on the one hand, and "SE3s making $120k to add features to a jankety legacy application that gets manually deployed once every three months" on the other), thinking of those as separate industries is a more useful mental model than thinking of them as two ends of the same industry. I thought this was relevant because one is more recession-proof than the other, but that's hardly the only way that they're different. So my point probably came across muddled because I was referring to a larger distinction in the industry without describing it very well.

dragonwriter 4y ago

> Software companies, even FAANGs, can be very relaxed and comfortable places to work And government can be very not relaxed, in both the same and different ways to high-pressure industry jobs.

rhexs 4y ago
Sure, but that's going to be about as rare as finding a mythical high pay, low stress, 0 pip job in famously negative companies. They absolutely exist, but there's almost no point in talking about them.
- twblalock 4y ago
  This is untrue in my experience. I know several people who have worked as software engineers for local governments in California for the better part of a decade. Both of them had previously worked for large tech companies which you have definitely heard of. They both preferred the work environment of the private sector and there was a lot of stress in their government jobs over the same things that stress people out anywhere: interpersonal relations, bad management, deadlines, projects going off the rails, etc. That stress was harder to deal with than it should have been, at those government jobs, because the environment is less flexible and a lot of the coworkers are, shall we say, not exactly top talent and underperformers stick around until they retire -- a PIP process would have been very handy! The level of drama at those jobs, over things that would be considered minor issues where I work, was unreasonable. On the contrary, I have been at a large tech company for almost 5 years and I usually stop working between 5 and 6pm. I see the parking lot empty out around the time I'm leaving, so I know it's not just me. I've worked on a weekend twice, and one of those times I volunteered to do it. I have never been on call. I work in an org that employs hundreds of engineers and I know that most of them have a good work-life balance too -- and those who work on the high pressure teams have chosen to do so.
- dragonwriter 4y ago
  > > And government can be very not relaxed, in both the same and different ways to high-pressure industry jobs. > Sure, but that’s going to be about as rare as finding a mythical high pay, low stress, 0 pip job in famously negative companies. T If you think its hard to find, I suspect you haven’t worked in or around government much.

leeoniya 4y ago

> It's at least 4X, often more. i'd say, often 2X, sometimes more. 4x would be a case of being drastically underpaid.