6 ms·

Tesla loses bid to move sexual harassment lawsuit to arbitration

58 points by mzs 4y ago

metadat 4y ago
Between Elongate harassment, the steady stream of safe workplace violation claims in past years, and Elon now building a crack team of aggressive street fighter lawyers, it seems rather than correct the behaviors all accused entities are doubling down. What does it signal?
- akomtu 4y ago
  It signals that Musk has gotten some powerful enemies who are pulling strings. But my bet is that he'll get away with a slap on the wrist - he's too valuable to DoD.
- mlindner 4y ago
  There wasn't any elongate harrasment.
- version_five 4y ago
  That the media doesn't like being teased by Musk, and the establishment is doing it's best to push out people who don't play along?
  - Larrikin 4y ago
    I find it impossible to believe people actually think like this and aren't just aggressively defending something terrible because they are invested in the person's companies.
    - version_five 4y ago
      - richbell 4y ago
        > Sounds like you're calling me a shill for tesla stock which I'm not, and I find way more offensive than the truth which is that I'm generally anti-establishment, specifically anti the current establishment and (a) have been happy to see Musk fucking with them and (b) have rarely seen a more concentrated, unanimous, and vicious attack on someone than the media fallout after Musk announced he wanted go buy twitter. It's very hard to take anything seriously from a group that has been falling over themselves to find reasons to try and "cancel" him, luckily the only tool they have in their playbook Rooting for the wealthiest man in the world is an interesting definition of "anti-establishment".
      - klyrs 4y ago
        If Tesla is your employer, they are the establishment. If Musk is your boss and is sexually harassing you, he is "the man."
      - BeefWellington 4y ago
        > It's very hard to take anything seriously from a group that has been falling over themselves to find reasons to try and "cancel" him, luckily the only tool they have in their playbook An alternate take on this might be that Musk had an idea these things were coming and so made the comments about how he'd be getting canceled to get ahead of things PR-wise.
      - ProfXponent 4y ago
      - 2pEXgD0fZ5cF 4y ago
        It doesn't get any more "establishment" than (one of) the richest men on earth...
    - moistly 4y ago
      Have you considered that some people believe most everyone is wrong, that they won’t be told what to do by others, that they are or should be in complete control their lives, that they live by their own rules, that The Man is keeping them down, etc? Musk personifies that belief system.
      - netsharc 4y ago
        > they won’t be told what to do by others, that they are or should be in complete control their lives "You have to work in the factory even though there's a deadly virus spreading around." - Musk to his employees But hey, pandemic shamdemic right, since the Musk said so :)
    - ComradePhil 4y ago
      You do realize that the "sexual harrasment" allegation is that Musk asked for a handjob from a massage therapist who was already massaging him as he lay naked... and she declined and that was the end of it... right?
      - richbell 4y ago
        > You do realize that the "sexual harrasment" allegation is that Musk asked for a handjob from a massage therapist who was already massaging him as he lay naked... and she declined and that was the end of it... right? I am not sure why you put sexual harassment in quotes like that: having your boss, let alone the wealthiest man in the world, make unwanted sexual advances is basically a textbook case of sexual harassment. > Unwelcome sexual advances, requests for sexual favors, and other verbal or physical conduct of a sexual nature constitutes sexual harassment when submission to or rejection of this conduct explicitly or implicitly affects an individual's employment, unreasonably interferes with an individual's work performance or creates an intimidating, hostile or offensive work environment. > > https://www.eeoc.gov/fact-sheet/facts-about-sexual-harassment https://www.eeoc.gov/fact-sheet/facts-about-sexual-harassmen... Plenty of people get massages and disrobe without sexually harassing their masseuse.
      - Commodore63 4y ago
        He then showed his erect penis to her.
        thedailymail 4y ago
        And paid $250K of company money for her to keep quiet about it.
        gbronner 4y ago
        He said she said situation that could well be entirely fabricated. But it would take a million to bring it to trial and waste a few weeks of his life, and he has nothing to gain. Legalized extortion-if she had to jail if she lost, you'd see fewer of these
    - zaptheimpaler 4y ago
      The facts are that there is an allegation without any proof right now. It only takes one person to make such an allegation. Tesla/Elon fanboyism side, I don't know how you are so sure of what really happened that you feel comfortable equating the defense of due legal process to supporting sexual harassment.
  - lttlrck 4y ago
    - version_five 4y ago
  - Sohcahtoa82 4y ago
    If I were to do a "Bad Take of the Week" kind of thing, this would have won it already, and it's only Tuesday.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- lupire 4y ago
  It signals that the man who sells a line of cars named "S3XY" likes sex a lot.
- klyrs 4y ago
  > and Elon now building a crack team of aggressive street fighter lawyers Well he did promise that they would only fight for good and never for evil. And if I know Musk, he would never make a promise he wouldn't deliver on for 8 years and running. (dripping sarcasm)
diebeforei485 4y ago
I agree with this judge. People should be able to sue their employers if they get sexually harassed by their supervisors or coworkers. Mandatory arbitration is a bad idea.
- duskwuff 4y ago
  I'd go a step further and say that binding arbitration clauses between employers and their employees probably shouldn't be allowed in general. Employer/employee disputes will frequently touch upon labor law, and should be heard by a court familiar with the relevant statutes -- not by a private-sector arbitrator.
  - CogitoCogito 4y ago
    Yeah I think that the agreement to enter arbitration should only be allowed _after_ the dispute in question as arisen. That way each side needs to gain something by entering into it.
CogitoCogito 4y ago
> Tesla has said it does not tolerate harassment and has disciplined and fired workers who engaged in misconduct. Apparently except by its CEO.
- mlindner 4y ago
  Or you know, the person who's been under the most personal attacks by the most people in the world had a personality assassination attempt made on him, surprise surprise. This literally is "I heard this from my friend" type of story, but everyone automatically believes this.
gbronner 4y ago
Lawsuits are an astoundingly inefficient way to resolve these issues. It can easily take more money than the worker will earn in his/her career to take this to trial, and the trial will rely more on caricatures and stereotypes than the worker's actual day-to-day experience. Imagine trying to convince the next 6 people that you meet that your side is right -- it comes down to looks, sympathy, emotions, etc, all of which have no relationship to what actually happened. The reason that employment lawyers want to get these things out of arbitration is that juries are more susceptible to emotional arguments, and the lawyers can sometimes get the company to pay their (inflated) legal fees if they win. Arbitration is quick, fast, final, and doesn't require all the legal machinations of court. Hopefully this is not a precedent.
- moralestapia 4y ago
  I agree with you. For this kind of thing it would've been best for them to go to arbitration and the plaintiff writing down a number on what is pretty much a blank check handed to her. That's all she could get out of this, if we're honest, and the amount could be quite generous too. The last thing Tesla/Musk want at the moment is bad PR. Unless she wants to see Musk behind bars (highly unlikely) I don't see the point of this going to trial. And sure, lawyers on both sides are rubbing their hands ...
alexitorg 4y ago
I'm curious. What is best practice here. Set up HR tribunals? Fire anyone who has a complaint made against them? Arrange counseling for affected parties? Offer voluntary arbitration?
- ipaddr 4y ago
  Remote works solves many ills.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
- armchairhacker 4y ago
  Handle it in court. Sexual harassment is a crime, and we already have a legal system to deal with it. Arbitration / counseling / punishment within the company is ok as long as its voluntary (by the victim). If whatever occurred isn't actually a crime, then you handle it with arbitration which is not voluntary (because the company doesn't technically need to do anything). If the company wants to fire the accused even if they're potentiality innocent it's ultimately up to them. In an ideal world, the accused wouldn't be forced out until they're convicted (in a court of law or internal tribunal). But in practice, the accusation itself could create drama and negative reputation, so even if the accused is 100% innocent it may be best for them to need to leave anyways.
  - mlindner 4y ago
    Sexual harassment, generally, is not a crime. Before we start going off the deep end here. In the US in general sexual harassment is a civil matter, not a criminal one.
  - gbronner 4y ago
    The issue is that the standards of proof is much higher in criminal cases. There's no way to defend against fraudulent or frivolous accusations

58 points by mzs 4y ago

Between Elongate harassment, the steady stream of safe workplace violation claims in past years, and Elon now building a crack team of aggressive street fighter lawyers, it seems rather than correct the behaviors all accused entities are doubling down. What does it signal?

akomtu 4y ago
It signals that Musk has gotten some powerful enemies who are pulling strings. But my bet is that he'll get away with a slap on the wrist - he's too valuable to DoD.
mlindner 4y ago
There wasn't any elongate harrasment.
version_five 4y ago
That the media doesn't like being teased by Musk, and the establishment is doing it's best to push out people who don't play along?
- Larrikin 4y ago
  I find it impossible to believe people actually think like this and aren't just aggressively defending something terrible because they are invested in the person's companies.
  - version_five 4y ago
    - richbell 4y ago
      > Sounds like you're calling me a shill for tesla stock which I'm not, and I find way more offensive than the truth which is that I'm generally anti-establishment, specifically anti the current establishment and (a) have been happy to see Musk fucking with them and (b) have rarely seen a more concentrated, unanimous, and vicious attack on someone than the media fallout after Musk announced he wanted go buy twitter. It's very hard to take anything seriously from a group that has been falling over themselves to find reasons to try and "cancel" him, luckily the only tool they have in their playbook Rooting for the wealthiest man in the world is an interesting definition of "anti-establishment".
    - klyrs 4y ago
      If Tesla is your employer, they are the establishment. If Musk is your boss and is sexually harassing you, he is "the man."
    - BeefWellington 4y ago
      > It's very hard to take anything seriously from a group that has been falling over themselves to find reasons to try and "cancel" him, luckily the only tool they have in their playbook An alternate take on this might be that Musk had an idea these things were coming and so made the comments about how he'd be getting canceled to get ahead of things PR-wise.
    - ProfXponent 4y ago
    - 2pEXgD0fZ5cF 4y ago
      It doesn't get any more "establishment" than (one of) the richest men on earth...
  - moistly 4y ago
    Have you considered that some people believe most everyone is wrong, that they won’t be told what to do by others, that they are or should be in complete control their lives, that they live by their own rules, that The Man is keeping them down, etc? Musk personifies that belief system.
    - netsharc 4y ago
      > they won’t be told what to do by others, that they are or should be in complete control their lives "You have to work in the factory even though there's a deadly virus spreading around." - Musk to his employees But hey, pandemic shamdemic right, since the Musk said so :)
  - ComradePhil 4y ago
    You do realize that the "sexual harrasment" allegation is that Musk asked for a handjob from a massage therapist who was already massaging him as he lay naked... and she declined and that was the end of it... right?
    - richbell 4y ago
      > You do realize that the "sexual harrasment" allegation is that Musk asked for a handjob from a massage therapist who was already massaging him as he lay naked... and she declined and that was the end of it... right? I am not sure why you put sexual harassment in quotes like that: having your boss, let alone the wealthiest man in the world, make unwanted sexual advances is basically a textbook case of sexual harassment. > Unwelcome sexual advances, requests for sexual favors, and other verbal or physical conduct of a sexual nature constitutes sexual harassment when submission to or rejection of this conduct explicitly or implicitly affects an individual's employment, unreasonably interferes with an individual's work performance or creates an intimidating, hostile or offensive work environment. > > https://www.eeoc.gov/fact-sheet/facts-about-sexual-harassment https://www.eeoc.gov/fact-sheet/facts-about-sexual-harassmen... Plenty of people get massages and disrobe without sexually harassing their masseuse.
    - Commodore63 4y ago
      He then showed his erect penis to her.
      - thedailymail 4y ago
        And paid $250K of company money for her to keep quiet about it.
        gbronner 4y ago
        He said she said situation that could well be entirely fabricated. But it would take a million to bring it to trial and waste a few weeks of his life, and he has nothing to gain. Legalized extortion-if she had to jail if she lost, you'd see fewer of these
  - zaptheimpaler 4y ago
    The facts are that there is an allegation without any proof right now. It only takes one person to make such an allegation. Tesla/Elon fanboyism side, I don't know how you are so sure of what really happened that you feel comfortable equating the defense of due legal process to supporting sexual harassment.
- lttlrck 4y ago
  - version_five 4y ago
- Sohcahtoa82 4y ago
  If I were to do a "Bad Take of the Week" kind of thing, this would have won it already, and it's only Tuesday.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
lupire 4y ago
It signals that the man who sells a line of cars named "S3XY" likes sex a lot.
klyrs 4y ago
> and Elon now building a crack team of aggressive street fighter lawyers Well he did promise that they would only fight for good and never for evil. And if I know Musk, he would never make a promise he wouldn't deliver on for 8 years and running. (dripping sarcasm)

diebeforei485 4y ago

I agree with this judge. People should be able to sue their employers if they get sexually harassed by their supervisors or coworkers. Mandatory arbitration is a bad idea.

duskwuff 4y ago
I'd go a step further and say that binding arbitration clauses between employers and their employees probably shouldn't be allowed in general. Employer/employee disputes will frequently touch upon labor law, and should be heard by a court familiar with the relevant statutes -- not by a private-sector arbitrator.
- CogitoCogito 4y ago
  Yeah I think that the agreement to enter arbitration should only be allowed _after_ the dispute in question as arisen. That way each side needs to gain something by entering into it.

CogitoCogito 4y ago

> Tesla has said it does not tolerate harassment and has disciplined and fired workers who engaged in misconduct. Apparently except by its CEO.

mlindner 4y ago
Or you know, the person who's been under the most personal attacks by the most people in the world had a personality assassination attempt made on him, surprise surprise. This literally is "I heard this from my friend" type of story, but everyone automatically believes this.

gbronner 4y ago

Lawsuits are an astoundingly inefficient way to resolve these issues. It can easily take more money than the worker will earn in his/her career to take this to trial, and the trial will rely more on caricatures and stereotypes than the worker's actual day-to-day experience. Imagine trying to convince the next 6 people that you meet that your side is right -- it comes down to looks, sympathy, emotions, etc, all of which have no relationship to what actually happened. The reason that employment lawyers want to get these things out of arbitration is that juries are more susceptible to emotional arguments, and the lawyers can sometimes get the company to pay their (inflated) legal fees if they win. Arbitration is quick, fast, final, and doesn't require all the legal machinations of court. Hopefully this is not a precedent.

moralestapia 4y ago
I agree with you. For this kind of thing it would've been best for them to go to arbitration and the plaintiff writing down a number on what is pretty much a blank check handed to her. That's all she could get out of this, if we're honest, and the amount could be quite generous too. The last thing Tesla/Musk want at the moment is bad PR. Unless she wants to see Musk behind bars (highly unlikely) I don't see the point of this going to trial. And sure, lawyers on both sides are rubbing their hands ...

alexitorg 4y ago

I'm curious. What is best practice here. Set up HR tribunals? Fire anyone who has a complaint made against them? Arrange counseling for affected parties? Offer voluntary arbitration?

ipaddr 4y ago
Remote works solves many ills.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
armchairhacker 4y ago
Handle it in court. Sexual harassment is a crime, and we already have a legal system to deal with it. Arbitration / counseling / punishment within the company is ok as long as its voluntary (by the victim). If whatever occurred isn't actually a crime, then you handle it with arbitration which is not voluntary (because the company doesn't technically need to do anything). If the company wants to fire the accused even if they're potentiality innocent it's ultimately up to them. In an ideal world, the accused wouldn't be forced out until they're convicted (in a court of law or internal tribunal). But in practice, the accusation itself could create drama and negative reputation, so even if the accused is 100% innocent it may be best for them to need to leave anyways.
- mlindner 4y ago
  Sexual harassment, generally, is not a crime. Before we start going off the deep end here. In the US in general sexual harassment is a civil matter, not a criminal one.
- gbronner 4y ago
  The issue is that the standards of proof is much higher in criminal cases. There's no way to defend against fraudulent or frivolous accusations