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Invalidation of Lived Experience is also what we do, and should do, to Targeted Individuals [0], people who boast of having diseases cured by crank medicine, an

Invalidation of Lived Experience is also what we do, and should do, to Targeted Individuals [0], people who boast of having diseases cured by crank medicine, and con game victims certain that they're beloved by overseas supermodels. Skepticism is a rational and healthy habit. [0] https://www.wired.com/story/mind-games-the-tortured-lives-of-targeted-individuals/ https://www.wired.com/story/mind-games-the-tortured-lives-of...

kelseyfrog 4y ago
Great. In agreement, but help me understand how we went from lived experiences involving bigotry and abuse to crank medicine and con game victims? I added that boundary specifically so that cases like this wouldn't be brought up and used to counter-example. > Skepticism is a rational and healthy habit. Agreed. Veiled-skepticism is, however in the case of invalidating lived experience, a powerful gaslighting tool. Discerning between the two is an additional hurdle targets of bigotry and abuse see layered on top of them.
- MockObject 4y ago
  > help me understand how we went from lived experiences involving bigotry and abuse to crank medicine There's no bright line between the two. Someone claims some experiences, and someone else disputes the claims. Bigotry isn't necessarily a factor, or, there might be disagreement on whether it is. "Invalidating lived experience" seems like a thought-stopping cliche, rather than any sort of argument at all. It is a fancy way of saying "you're wrong, and I'm right!" or "you're not allowed to say that I'm wrong."
  - kelseyfrog 4y ago
    That's so interesting. For me, it's a reminder to "pause twice before telling someone how they should be interpreting their experiences relating to bigotry and abuse. Get curious instead." I guess for some people it gets translated into "You're not allowed to say I'm wrong." I feel like I have something to learn from asking, is this something that has happened to you? As an aside, the inability to draw a clear line between abuse and other topics isn't so much of a problem for me. It is a form of Sorites paradox that we deal with in other topics all the time.
    - fao_ 4y ago
      Honestly? Don't bother. You're not going to get through to a place that doesn't instaban people who have posts like: > frontman1988 7 days ago | on: On Aging Alone > 40 is the prime age for men. You can easily get a younger gf from > Thailand/Vietnam/Philippines with minimum effort. And you never know > you might find true love (if it exists) as well. > reply or > frontman1988 16 hours ago | on: Can growth > continue? > The solution to tackling declining population can be by generating > Genetically modified babies. This new race of humans will be smarter > and stronger than the current lot due to eugenics. CRISPR will make it > possible and it's already happening in China. The west needs to look at > it instead of ramping up immigration and importing instability from > third world countries. > reply I mean, the person you're responding to hasn't taken the time to understand the base concept of "cultural appropriation", or relative disparity of experience: > MockObject 3 months ago | parent | context | > prev | next [–] | on: The Casio employee > behind the “Sleng Teng” riddim ... > This speaks to a fatal flaw with the concept of cultural appropriation. > Ok, so a "white" person can't "speak for Native Americans", but > a Native American can? Can any, or just certain ones? Who wins if they > disagree? > reply I'm not really sure why they would show more ability to empathize here with you than they do in other threads! What's funny here is that these people would be probated or in the case of frontman1988, banned, on SomethingAwful these days. How times have changed!
      - fao_ 4y ago
        Oh, let's not forget this zinger! > MockObject 4 months ago | on: Being black in tech is exhausting > I am a minority, and I am furious that my advancement is besmirched > with the asterisk of the possibility of affirmative action. But I am > powerless and unheard.
    - MockObject 4y ago
      I don't exempt perceptions of bigotry from any other reported phenomena, and I think they're as valid a target for skepticism as any other. Personally, I am liable to refrain from such discussions because they are universally fruitless, but not because of delicacy. > I feel like I have something to learn from asking, is this something that has happened to you? As a member of a group subject to bigotry, I see exaggerated stories deliberately weaponized, and legitimate critical thought silenced with thought-terminating cliches that include the one under discussion. I also see folks boast "I listen to People of X!", but only paying attention to the most lurid stories, totally ignoring those who report the absence of bigotry. They're motivated by something other than the search for objective truth. I encourage skepticism and independence of thought for all. Your curiosity should include the possibility that they're experiencing something you've never considered, but also the possibility that they're really mistaken, or exaggerating for any number of reasons.
- JonShartwell 4y ago
  How would you be able to tell what’s veiled skepticism vs legitimate skepticism?
  - kelseyfrog 4y ago
    I think we all have some skill in understanding if we are being engaged with authentically or are being deceived.

kelseyfrog 4y ago

Great. In agreement, but help me understand how we went from lived experiences involving bigotry and abuse to crank medicine and con game victims? I added that boundary specifically so that cases like this wouldn't be brought up and used to counter-example. > Skepticism is a rational and healthy habit. Agreed. Veiled-skepticism is, however in the case of invalidating lived experience, a powerful gaslighting tool. Discerning between the two is an additional hurdle targets of bigotry and abuse see layered on top of them.

MockObject 4y ago
> help me understand how we went from lived experiences involving bigotry and abuse to crank medicine There's no bright line between the two. Someone claims some experiences, and someone else disputes the claims. Bigotry isn't necessarily a factor, or, there might be disagreement on whether it is. "Invalidating lived experience" seems like a thought-stopping cliche, rather than any sort of argument at all. It is a fancy way of saying "you're wrong, and I'm right!" or "you're not allowed to say that I'm wrong."
- kelseyfrog 4y ago
  That's so interesting. For me, it's a reminder to "pause twice before telling someone how they should be interpreting their experiences relating to bigotry and abuse. Get curious instead." I guess for some people it gets translated into "You're not allowed to say I'm wrong." I feel like I have something to learn from asking, is this something that has happened to you? As an aside, the inability to draw a clear line between abuse and other topics isn't so much of a problem for me. It is a form of Sorites paradox that we deal with in other topics all the time.
  - fao_ 4y ago
    Honestly? Don't bother. You're not going to get through to a place that doesn't instaban people who have posts like: > frontman1988 7 days ago | on: On Aging Alone > 40 is the prime age for men. You can easily get a younger gf from > Thailand/Vietnam/Philippines with minimum effort. And you never know > you might find true love (if it exists) as well. > reply or > frontman1988 16 hours ago | on: Can growth > continue? > The solution to tackling declining population can be by generating > Genetically modified babies. This new race of humans will be smarter > and stronger than the current lot due to eugenics. CRISPR will make it > possible and it's already happening in China. The west needs to look at > it instead of ramping up immigration and importing instability from > third world countries. > reply I mean, the person you're responding to hasn't taken the time to understand the base concept of "cultural appropriation", or relative disparity of experience: > MockObject 3 months ago | parent | context | > prev | next [–] | on: The Casio employee > behind the “Sleng Teng” riddim ... > This speaks to a fatal flaw with the concept of cultural appropriation. > Ok, so a "white" person can't "speak for Native Americans", but > a Native American can? Can any, or just certain ones? Who wins if they > disagree? > reply I'm not really sure why they would show more ability to empathize here with you than they do in other threads! What's funny here is that these people would be probated or in the case of frontman1988, banned, on SomethingAwful these days. How times have changed!
    - fao_ 4y ago
      Oh, let's not forget this zinger! > MockObject 4 months ago | on: Being black in tech is exhausting > I am a minority, and I am furious that my advancement is besmirched > with the asterisk of the possibility of affirmative action. But I am > powerless and unheard.
  - MockObject 4y ago
    I don't exempt perceptions of bigotry from any other reported phenomena, and I think they're as valid a target for skepticism as any other. Personally, I am liable to refrain from such discussions because they are universally fruitless, but not because of delicacy. > I feel like I have something to learn from asking, is this something that has happened to you? As a member of a group subject to bigotry, I see exaggerated stories deliberately weaponized, and legitimate critical thought silenced with thought-terminating cliches that include the one under discussion. I also see folks boast "I listen to People of X!", but only paying attention to the most lurid stories, totally ignoring those who report the absence of bigotry. They're motivated by something other than the search for objective truth. I encourage skepticism and independence of thought for all. Your curiosity should include the possibility that they're experiencing something you've never considered, but also the possibility that they're really mistaken, or exaggerating for any number of reasons.
JonShartwell 4y ago
How would you be able to tell what’s veiled skepticism vs legitimate skepticism?
- kelseyfrog 4y ago
  I think we all have some skill in understanding if we are being engaged with authentically or are being deceived.