5 ms·

I did that, out of curiosity, and I'll summarize what I found in case anybody else is interested: First, it looks like the very best options for long term supp

I did that, out of curiosity, and I'll summarize what I found in case anybody else is interested: First, it looks like the very best options for long term support is this guy https://androidenterprisepartners.withgoogle.com/device/#!/FABhMZWeIzET1F8PJu5K https://androidenterprisepartners.withgoogle.com/device/#!/F... (Point Mobile PM30) with "Security updates until March 2028". That's 6 years of support, if a little suspicious since it's from a company with a single device on the market. After that it looks like Samsung offers support for their devices until "February 2027", and one other company, Zebra Technologies, offers support until "March 2027". Going to 2026 adds a few more brands (Motorola, Xiaomi, Google Pixel). So the bulk of phones have support for 4 years, there's decent options with 5 years of support, a single device with 6 years, and nothing beyond that. Two data points for contrast: 1. I just bought a 10 year old PC that's still useful, can run the bleeding edge of operating systems, and can be upgraded and repaired easily - I expect it to have another 5 years of useful lifespan ahead of it. 2. The iPhone 6S, released in 2015, is still supported by Apple. That's a 7 year old phone. iOS 13 (released in 2020) dropped support for the iPhone 6/6+ (2014) and 5s (2013) so 6 years and 7 years respectively. A final note: all of this is about software support - none of this is actually about useful lifespan. Two years ago my phone crapped out on me and I used a friend's old iPhone SE (1st generation, 2016) for a couple months - it was trending hard towards a trash can. The battery lasts about 2 years before it needs replacement, the glass screen breaks easily and aftermarket replacements have touch input issues, and running the latest iOS on it had things moving slower than LA traffic. My hope is that phones hit / have already hit the end of easy performance advancement, and a focus on longevity might start to take over. But I don't think that's likely. There is pressure from things like large institutional buyers to make generic PCs last long and be endlessly repairable - it's not really clear that pressure exists or CAN exist under capitalism, for phones.

kevincox 4y ago
The state of affairs is definitely dark. However the best way to improve this in the current system is to spend money on the phones that promise and deliver long support lifecycles.
- KronisLV 4y ago
  > However the best way to improve this in the current system is to spend money on the phones that promise and deliver long support lifecycles. I think a part of the problem here is the fact that I haven't seen a phone advertise this as a selling point, not once in my life. Where's the RHEL equivalent among smartphones? Then again, I've only used mainstream Android devices and Symbian back in the day (which was an amazing time for mobile devices, in my opinion).
  - kevincox 4y ago
    Few do, but there are some of there. For example this list. But in more mainstream marketing the Pixels always have advertised their support lifespan.
  - Fnoord 4y ago
    Because you didn't look into it well enough. Fairphone deliver 5 years support since release. Google do too, with their Pixel series. Its a different ballpark than CAT. But Fairphone are easy to repair due to the modularity.
    - KronisLV 4y ago
      > Because you didn't look into it well enough. But that's just my point! Manufacturers are keen to shove their new fancy camera solutions and how thin their devices are and the notches and so on in my face. Why isn't the same done in regards to the ruggedness (CAT does, other manufacturers have tried with Gorilla Glass at best), battery life (where are the smartphones that will last me a week without being recharged?) or the long support cycles (security updates for the OS, maybe even an unlocked bootloader and open source drivers)? If i'm not overwhelmed with ads about these things (or at least don't see them advertised as one of the first things about the device), then clearly the manufacturers don't really deem it a priority/a selling point? Who knows... It's nice to have options, but having to look for these things yourself reminds me of people talking about the year of the Linux desktop, while the majority of people out there don't even know what Linux is.
shp0ngle 4y ago
Well, it’s just, people that care about longevity buy an iPhone. And the capitalism kind of works there - iPhone is still #1 phone brand, and even rising in marketshare a bit recently. That’s despite being a bit overpriced. And they are the richest company on Earth, or something on that level. People do want longevity, but there seems to be something stopping Android manufacturers from that. I don’t know nearly enough about mobile drivers and mobile OS to tell you what.
- shp0ngle 4y ago
  It seems the main stumbling block is Qualcomm not supporting their chips beyond 4 years, as described by Fairphone here, that tries to push support of their phones to 7-ish years https://www.fairphone.com/en/2020/06/18/fairphone-2-gets-android-9/ https://www.fairphone.com/en/2020/06/18/fairphone-2-gets-and...
  - asddubs 4y ago
    I never fully understood that. Kernel drivers have to be open source, right? Maybe not mainlined, but the source should be available. So what prevents someone from taking that and then getting it into a shape to be upstreamable? Why exactly is support by qualcomm needed?
    - theodric 4y ago
      Have to be, and are not. It's amazing what simply refusing can accomplish.
    - ChikkaChiChi 4y ago
      I'm not an OEM but I'll hazard a guess: long term hardware support assures that field replacements will match the exact specifications your are expecting. Large scale implementations have historically relied on a reference device to make sure you don't have a thousand different profiles running around. Combine this with a JIT supply chain, and nobody making phones is going to want to stockpile a bunch of old Qualcomm chips they aren't sure they'll ever need.
- 4y ago
GeekyBear 4y ago
> 2. The iPhone 6S, released in 2015, is still supported by Apple. That's a 7 year old phone. iOS 13 (released in 2020) dropped support for the iPhone 6/6+ (2014) and 5s (2013) so 6 years and 7 years respectively. If you include years where you get a security update, but not an OS update, as Android device makers do, the 2013 5s got another update at the end of last year.
yepguy 4y ago
I just looked into this issue over the weekend, since my current phone is now EOL. The newest phones from Google and Samsung just upped their support lifetime from 3 years of software updates[1][2]. Their newer phones now get 3 or 4 years of feature updates, and 5 years of security updates. Not as impressive as Apple, but it's a welcome improvement. Soon it might actually make sense to buy older Pixel or Galaxy models without worrying about them going EOL just a year or 2 after you get them. [1]: https://support.google.com/pixelphone/answer/4457705 https://support.google.com/pixelphone/answer/4457705 [2]: https://www.androidauthority.com/samsung-android-updates-1148888/ https://www.androidauthority.com/samsung-android-updates-114...
fencepost 4y ago
Just recently bought a Samsung A53 5G in part because of the extended update time frame. I was going to get the very similar A33 but it's not available in the US. The only real lack that jumps to mind is no wireless charging, but it does have a feature I enabled immediately - capping the battery charge to 85%. With that and the updates there's a pretty decent chance that I actually will still be using the same device 4-5 years from now - possibly without the battery replacements needed on my previous phones.
fsflover 4y ago
If you want lifetime software updates, consider GNU/Linux smartphones, Librem 5 and Pinephone. They run mainline Linux, which will receive updates even if the companies behind the smartphones disappear (actually, the second company already doesn't do any development). More details: https://source.puri.sm/Librem5/community-wiki/-/wikis/Frequently-Asked-Questions#311-how-can-purism-provide-lifetime-software-updates-for-the-librem-5 https://source.puri.sm/Librem5/community-wiki/-/wikis/Freque....
- spicybright 4y ago
  I'm going to sound like a negative nancy, but after some casual research I did 6 months ago, I couldn't find any that were reliable as a daily driver cell phone. For profit companies and strict legal requirements for emergency calls and such have a very good track record so far compared to most reviews I've seen. Maybe I just don't text much, but SMS and phone calls are generally very important to me in terms of reliability. I've read some reports about one of the main contenders locking up to prevent even 911 calls in certain cases. I'm sure many of these issues have been addressed, but it's to early for my risk level to use it as a primary device (unless I kept a backup flip phone on me all the time too) Would absolutely love to be proven wrong though. I want to live in a world where the best software is free and open source, and you can flash it to any device capable of running it.
  - fsflover 4y ago
    Yes, these phones are really new and should be used with care. Some people report them as reliable daily drivers though: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31237002 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31237002. Anyway, anyone who is supporting the change helps future users and solves the problem of the duopoly in the long term.
    - spicybright 4y ago
      Someone has to be the guinea pig at some point, right? And I'm extremely thankful there are people stepping up to do so to work out the kinks. Still dreaming of being able to buy a new phone and picking between real competitive options for it's OS. Like you would for a personal computer.
the_third_wave 4y ago
If you want long-time software support on an Android device make sure to get one which is supported by AOSP-derived distributions like LineageOS. As soon as you get the device install LineageOS (or something similar) on the device and you're set (OTA updates and all - I get weekly OTA updates on a Samsung SIII-neo from 2014). Get a relatively popular device to increase the chance of the thing being supported for as long a time as possible.
joecool1029 4y ago
>A final note: all of this is about software support - none of this is actually about useful lifespan. Two years ago my phone crapped out on me and I used a friend's old iPhone SE (1st generation, 2016) for a couple months - it was trending hard towards a trash can. The battery lasts about 2 years before it needs replacement, the glass screen breaks easily and aftermarket replacements have touch input issues, and running the latest iOS on it had things moving slower than LA traffic. The screen doesn't break that easily unless you drop it face down on a sidewalk or accidentally close it in a rat trap (don't ask). Tip for buying screens if they do, get working pulls or buy from a vendor that does high quality refurbs on OEM screens. I've had good luck with the 'premium refurbished' from injuredgadgets, their batteries have held up (even if the battery health % never goes down) as well. Ifixit's aftermarket screen had poor colors and one of my batteries turned into a spicy pillow in about a month of use, so I can only recommend them for guides and tools. As for speed, I don't use them as a primary anymore but unless your battery is shot and iOS is throttling it, maps and payments don't seem to lag. Data speeds will be unimpressive, it can't aggregate carriers. Otherwise it works fine. For me it's a great utilitarian secondary device, basically the phone that always 'just works'. Absolutely usable, in fact there are use cases where it excels simply because it can be used with wired headphones while plugged into a charger at the same time and I can't think of any other supported device on the market able to do that.

kevincox 4y ago

The state of affairs is definitely dark. However the best way to improve this in the current system is to spend money on the phones that promise and deliver long support lifecycles.

KronisLV 4y ago
> However the best way to improve this in the current system is to spend money on the phones that promise and deliver long support lifecycles. I think a part of the problem here is the fact that I haven't seen a phone advertise this as a selling point, not once in my life. Where's the RHEL equivalent among smartphones? Then again, I've only used mainstream Android devices and Symbian back in the day (which was an amazing time for mobile devices, in my opinion).
- kevincox 4y ago
  Few do, but there are some of there. For example this list. But in more mainstream marketing the Pixels always have advertised their support lifespan.
- Fnoord 4y ago
  Because you didn't look into it well enough. Fairphone deliver 5 years support since release. Google do too, with their Pixel series. Its a different ballpark than CAT. But Fairphone are easy to repair due to the modularity.
  - KronisLV 4y ago
    > Because you didn't look into it well enough. But that's just my point! Manufacturers are keen to shove their new fancy camera solutions and how thin their devices are and the notches and so on in my face. Why isn't the same done in regards to the ruggedness (CAT does, other manufacturers have tried with Gorilla Glass at best), battery life (where are the smartphones that will last me a week without being recharged?) or the long support cycles (security updates for the OS, maybe even an unlocked bootloader and open source drivers)? If i'm not overwhelmed with ads about these things (or at least don't see them advertised as one of the first things about the device), then clearly the manufacturers don't really deem it a priority/a selling point? Who knows... It's nice to have options, but having to look for these things yourself reminds me of people talking about the year of the Linux desktop, while the majority of people out there don't even know what Linux is.

shp0ngle 4y ago

Well, it’s just, people that care about longevity buy an iPhone. And the capitalism kind of works there - iPhone is still #1 phone brand, and even rising in marketshare a bit recently. That’s despite being a bit overpriced. And they are the richest company on Earth, or something on that level. People do want longevity, but there seems to be something stopping Android manufacturers from that. I don’t know nearly enough about mobile drivers and mobile OS to tell you what.

shp0ngle 4y ago
It seems the main stumbling block is Qualcomm not supporting their chips beyond 4 years, as described by Fairphone here, that tries to push support of their phones to 7-ish years https://www.fairphone.com/en/2020/06/18/fairphone-2-gets-android-9/ https://www.fairphone.com/en/2020/06/18/fairphone-2-gets-and...
- asddubs 4y ago
  I never fully understood that. Kernel drivers have to be open source, right? Maybe not mainlined, but the source should be available. So what prevents someone from taking that and then getting it into a shape to be upstreamable? Why exactly is support by qualcomm needed?
  - theodric 4y ago
    Have to be, and are not. It's amazing what simply refusing can accomplish.
  - ChikkaChiChi 4y ago
    I'm not an OEM but I'll hazard a guess: long term hardware support assures that field replacements will match the exact specifications your are expecting. Large scale implementations have historically relied on a reference device to make sure you don't have a thousand different profiles running around. Combine this with a JIT supply chain, and nobody making phones is going to want to stockpile a bunch of old Qualcomm chips they aren't sure they'll ever need.
4y ago

GeekyBear 4y ago

> 2. The iPhone 6S, released in 2015, is still supported by Apple. That's a 7 year old phone. iOS 13 (released in 2020) dropped support for the iPhone 6/6+ (2014) and 5s (2013) so 6 years and 7 years respectively. If you include years where you get a security update, but not an OS update, as Android device makers do, the 2013 5s got another update at the end of last year.

yepguy 4y ago

I just looked into this issue over the weekend, since my current phone is now EOL. The newest phones from Google and Samsung just upped their support lifetime from 3 years of software updates[1][2]. Their newer phones now get 3 or 4 years of feature updates, and 5 years of security updates. Not as impressive as Apple, but it's a welcome improvement. Soon it might actually make sense to buy older Pixel or Galaxy models without worrying about them going EOL just a year or 2 after you get them. [1]: https://support.google.com/pixelphone/answer/4457705 https://support.google.com/pixelphone/answer/4457705 [2]: https://www.androidauthority.com/samsung-android-updates-1148888/ https://www.androidauthority.com/samsung-android-updates-114...

fencepost 4y ago

Just recently bought a Samsung A53 5G in part because of the extended update time frame. I was going to get the very similar A33 but it's not available in the US. The only real lack that jumps to mind is no wireless charging, but it does have a feature I enabled immediately - capping the battery charge to 85%. With that and the updates there's a pretty decent chance that I actually will still be using the same device 4-5 years from now - possibly without the battery replacements needed on my previous phones.

fsflover 4y ago

If you want lifetime software updates, consider GNU/Linux smartphones, Librem 5 and Pinephone. They run mainline Linux, which will receive updates even if the companies behind the smartphones disappear (actually, the second company already doesn't do any development). More details: https://source.puri.sm/Librem5/community-wiki/-/wikis/Frequently-Asked-Questions#311-how-can-purism-provide-lifetime-software-updates-for-the-librem-5 https://source.puri.sm/Librem5/community-wiki/-/wikis/Freque....

spicybright 4y ago
I'm going to sound like a negative nancy, but after some casual research I did 6 months ago, I couldn't find any that were reliable as a daily driver cell phone. For profit companies and strict legal requirements for emergency calls and such have a very good track record so far compared to most reviews I've seen. Maybe I just don't text much, but SMS and phone calls are generally very important to me in terms of reliability. I've read some reports about one of the main contenders locking up to prevent even 911 calls in certain cases. I'm sure many of these issues have been addressed, but it's to early for my risk level to use it as a primary device (unless I kept a backup flip phone on me all the time too) Would absolutely love to be proven wrong though. I want to live in a world where the best software is free and open source, and you can flash it to any device capable of running it.
- fsflover 4y ago
  Yes, these phones are really new and should be used with care. Some people report them as reliable daily drivers though: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31237002 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31237002. Anyway, anyone who is supporting the change helps future users and solves the problem of the duopoly in the long term.
  - spicybright 4y ago
    Someone has to be the guinea pig at some point, right? And I'm extremely thankful there are people stepping up to do so to work out the kinks. Still dreaming of being able to buy a new phone and picking between real competitive options for it's OS. Like you would for a personal computer.

the_third_wave 4y ago

If you want long-time software support on an Android device make sure to get one which is supported by AOSP-derived distributions like LineageOS. As soon as you get the device install LineageOS (or something similar) on the device and you're set (OTA updates and all - I get weekly OTA updates on a Samsung SIII-neo from 2014). Get a relatively popular device to increase the chance of the thing being supported for as long a time as possible.

joecool1029 4y ago

>A final note: all of this is about software support - none of this is actually about useful lifespan. Two years ago my phone crapped out on me and I used a friend's old iPhone SE (1st generation, 2016) for a couple months - it was trending hard towards a trash can. The battery lasts about 2 years before it needs replacement, the glass screen breaks easily and aftermarket replacements have touch input issues, and running the latest iOS on it had things moving slower than LA traffic. The screen doesn't break that easily unless you drop it face down on a sidewalk or accidentally close it in a rat trap (don't ask). Tip for buying screens if they do, get working pulls or buy from a vendor that does high quality refurbs on OEM screens. I've had good luck with the 'premium refurbished' from injuredgadgets, their batteries have held up (even if the battery health % never goes down) as well. Ifixit's aftermarket screen had poor colors and one of my batteries turned into a spicy pillow in about a month of use, so I can only recommend them for guides and tools. As for speed, I don't use them as a primary anymore but unless your battery is shot and iOS is throttling it, maps and payments don't seem to lag. Data speeds will be unimpressive, it can't aggregate carriers. Otherwise it works fine. For me it's a great utilitarian secondary device, basically the phone that always 'just works'. Absolutely usable, in fact there are use cases where it excels simply because it can be used with wired headphones while plugged into a charger at the same time and I can't think of any other supported device on the market able to do that.