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Generics allow optimization, but that optimization has to be implemented in the first place. Java generics is an afterthought so you can expect such a suboptima

Generics allow optimization, but that optimization has to be implemented in the first place. Java generics is an afterthought so you can expect such a suboptimal design.

malfist 4y ago
Features added after launch doesn't make something an afterthought. Java generics are a key part of the language.
- switchbak 4y ago
  Generics were only added in Java 1.5, they were absolutely not part of the original design, and type erasure is very much a considerable restriction in some cases. I would wager that a greenfield design would look quite different. Whether you call that an afterthought? I'm sure the designers had this in mind, but at the same time they painted themselves into a corner somewhat with earlier decisions and a huge dedication to backward compatibility. Their work on threads on the other hand shows some real forethought and they were able to avoid most of the pitfalls that a few other language impl's fell into.
- wvenable 4y ago
  Generics in C# were also added after launch but have a significantly better implementation. While they are a key part of the language they aren't a key part of the platform.
cogman10 4y ago
Java optimizes at the method level and the majority of methods when writing an app will have constant types used against them. Your method signature may look like void foo(Iterable<Bar> b) which would make you think of vtables and casting performance losses. However, Java's JIT is fairly cleaver. It can tell that you always call `foo` with an `ArrayList` and it can tell that `ArrayList`'s iterator always emits a `Bar` Object. From there it can elate a lot of the type tables and virtual dispatch to just be direct dispatch. It does that at the cost of a couple of added runtime checks to make sure those assumption's aren't violated. The impact of generics on performance has, for me, generally been pretty low. I've seen a much higher impact due to java's memory model (which is getting fixed with Valhalla). This, btw, is how JavaScript's and indeed most high speed JITs function.
- lifthrasiir 4y ago
  Yeah, JIT does subsume naive AOT + generics for many cases, but it is a bit unfair comparison because there is no reason for other languages to implement such optimizations (PGO is one of them). And such an inference is not free and causes usual JIT pain points.
kaba0 4y ago
I don’t think it is fair to call it an afterthought. I would even say that it was extremely well thought out, managing to move a whole ecosystem with millions of lines of code from unsafe raw usage to type-safe generics without much hiccup, at a time when this feature wasn’t all that well known by the average developer.
- titzer 4y ago
  Erasure was a bad design choice. C# did the exact same upgrade (add generics to the language), but they chose to reify them and add them to the binary format, with a better overall result (IMHO). C# does not have platform reach that Java has, but there are a lot of factors at play there that go beyond language design choices.
  - kaba0 4y ago
    As I learned from another commenter here, C# 1.0 didn’t actually have generics at a language level, but was already designed that way on a vm level. So C# 2.0 could take advantage of that, making it much more of a planned feature from the start. Also, I don’t see erased generics all that big of a deal — if there was no reflection (which is not that common feature in languages) one could not even differentiate between the two models. Haskell also does complete type erasure for example. As for another view point, it is often brought up on HN that what made the JVM language ecosystem so thriving is exactly the type erasure model. C# effectively forces their idea of generics onto the whole platform, while JVM languages are free to choose their own model. I don’t know how true is that, but empirically it does seem to sound true (F# does share its generics model with C#, and the CLR has a history of getting some attempts at being a target which is later dropped. Though I assume it is more often due to it simply being a smaller target)
    - titzer 4y ago
      > if there was no reflection (which is not that common feature in languages) one could not even differentiate between the two models. Haskell also does complete type erasure for example. You can, even without reflection, because the Java generic type system doesn't have the parametricity property; you can detect runtime types with cast/instanceof. Haskell doesn't have non-parametric operations, so erasure is not observable.

Generics allow optimization, but that optimization has to be implemented in the first place. Java generics is an afterthought so you can expect such a suboptimal design.

malfist 4y ago

Features added after launch doesn't make something an afterthought. Java generics are a key part of the language.

switchbak 4y ago
Generics were only added in Java 1.5, they were absolutely not part of the original design, and type erasure is very much a considerable restriction in some cases. I would wager that a greenfield design would look quite different. Whether you call that an afterthought? I'm sure the designers had this in mind, but at the same time they painted themselves into a corner somewhat with earlier decisions and a huge dedication to backward compatibility. Their work on threads on the other hand shows some real forethought and they were able to avoid most of the pitfalls that a few other language impl's fell into.
wvenable 4y ago
Generics in C# were also added after launch but have a significantly better implementation. While they are a key part of the language they aren't a key part of the platform.

cogman10 4y ago

Java optimizes at the method level and the majority of methods when writing an app will have constant types used against them. Your method signature may look like void foo(Iterable<Bar> b) which would make you think of vtables and casting performance losses. However, Java's JIT is fairly cleaver. It can tell that you always call `foo` with an `ArrayList` and it can tell that `ArrayList`'s iterator always emits a `Bar` Object. From there it can elate a lot of the type tables and virtual dispatch to just be direct dispatch. It does that at the cost of a couple of added runtime checks to make sure those assumption's aren't violated. The impact of generics on performance has, for me, generally been pretty low. I've seen a much higher impact due to java's memory model (which is getting fixed with Valhalla). This, btw, is how JavaScript's and indeed most high speed JITs function.

lifthrasiir 4y ago
Yeah, JIT does subsume naive AOT + generics for many cases, but it is a bit unfair comparison because there is no reason for other languages to implement such optimizations (PGO is one of them). And such an inference is not free and causes usual JIT pain points.

kaba0 4y ago

I don’t think it is fair to call it an afterthought. I would even say that it was extremely well thought out, managing to move a whole ecosystem with millions of lines of code from unsafe raw usage to type-safe generics without much hiccup, at a time when this feature wasn’t all that well known by the average developer.

titzer 4y ago
Erasure was a bad design choice. C# did the exact same upgrade (add generics to the language), but they chose to reify them and add them to the binary format, with a better overall result (IMHO). C# does not have platform reach that Java has, but there are a lot of factors at play there that go beyond language design choices.
- kaba0 4y ago
  As I learned from another commenter here, C# 1.0 didn’t actually have generics at a language level, but was already designed that way on a vm level. So C# 2.0 could take advantage of that, making it much more of a planned feature from the start. Also, I don’t see erased generics all that big of a deal — if there was no reflection (which is not that common feature in languages) one could not even differentiate between the two models. Haskell also does complete type erasure for example. As for another view point, it is often brought up on HN that what made the JVM language ecosystem so thriving is exactly the type erasure model. C# effectively forces their idea of generics onto the whole platform, while JVM languages are free to choose their own model. I don’t know how true is that, but empirically it does seem to sound true (F# does share its generics model with C#, and the CLR has a history of getting some attempts at being a target which is later dropped. Though I assume it is more often due to it simply being a smaller target)
  - titzer 4y ago
    > if there was no reflection (which is not that common feature in languages) one could not even differentiate between the two models. Haskell also does complete type erasure for example. You can, even without reflection, because the Java generic type system doesn't have the parametricity property; you can detect runtime types with cast/instanceof. Haskell doesn't have non-parametric operations, so erasure is not observable.