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You said Russia fought for a "stable Chechen political regime that sort-of works". Jataman606 says it's disingenuous to suggest that - and you just let it go.

You said Russia fought for a "stable Chechen political regime that sort-of works". Jataman606 says it's disingenuous to suggest that - and you just let it go. And he's right. Grozny was demolished, no civil society left, horrendous human rights violations, no justice for survivors, just appeals to the corrupt, absolute power of Kadyrov. To say that sort-of-works is disingenuous and lets Russia off the hook for its part in backing him. You don't have to be the world police to condemn atrocities. Just like you don't have to defend Russia in order to criticise other powers.

thriftwy 4y ago
Russia has got a stable Chechen political regime that sort-of works. Jataman606 did not really refute it, instead pivoting into biased history diving. "No civil society left, horrendous human rights violations" is what there were before the Second Chechen war - there was an alpha version of ISIS there, with slave markets and kidnappings for ransom. Was it worth it fighting ISIS? Absolutely. Was it worth it fighting Ichkeria? Absolutely-ish. I don't really like Kadyrov, but we are talking about a Muslim region and not yours and mine personal preferences. You seem to assume that any Muslim region would want, and implement, a liberal democratic power structure. Well, tough luck finding that between Iraq and Afghanistan. Or in Russia for that matter. I just don't feel that it's an atrocity. The fate of Afghanistan is an atrocity. Chechnya, not so much, it's just people living up to their own political preferences and capabilities.
- Sporktacular 4y ago
  And Russia levelled it. They could have chosen to develop it, establish courts and other institutions, try war criminals. But their intentions were laid bare when they backed a dictator with many of the same human rights problems. That's why Jataman606 called your argument disingenuous, he's right and you haven't refuted that. "Chechnya is just people living up to their own political preferences and capabilities." First, Russia is in charge, but somehow it's on Chechens and Muslims for failing to turn their country around and implement liberal reforms. How does that work? Why are you so keen to fight off criticism of Russia and its obvious, self-evident record of political wasteland wherever it treads? And don't whatabout America/China/X this time. Second, your arguments drip with the bigotry of low expectations - seeing Chechens and Muslims as people essentially capable of only primitive political organisation. You just ignore every tortured journalist, every silenced student or professor so you can reduce the lack of political development to something essential to the people themselves. Every large group contains people wanting peace, freedom, justice etc. And I don't make any assumptions about what 'all Muslims' or 'all Chechens' want, my argument doesn't need to. I can ask 100 of them and accept as many answers, but your argument can't do that. And you confuse what they want with what they have while glossing over the many things that can go wrong when trying to turn the first into the second. But sure, let's blame their genes/culture/whatever, just not Mother Russia. Just in case you're confused about all the down votes.
  - thriftwy 4y ago
    I think that's a "no true scotsman" fallacy. You blame Russia for not doing things that also have not been done anywhere in the world in the same time frame. And then you blame Russia for doing things that have also been done elsewhere on a grand scale. Where are all of those Muslim countries which were turned around by courts and institutions ex machina? Even Dubai struggles with essentially the same problems as modern Chechnya. I'm not wondering about the down votes from the people who can't take blame for ISIS and Afghanistan along other things. It's a bad but unsurprising thing that you are not smarter than that.
    - Sporktacular 4y ago
      Liberal reforms have been implemented by central governments al over the world. England -> Hong Kong, EU -> Poland, US -> Mississippi. That's just more whataboutism. Where other countries fail to do that, I'll fault them just as strongly too. Not that it's relevant, since the Russian government isn't Muslim but Lebanon, Tunisia, Egypt, Iraq, Iran have all had governments that at some point implemented liberal reforms using state institutions. And they obviously imposed that on their provinces, just as Russia could - since Russia is ultimately in charge of Chechnya, not its 'Muslim' vassalage. How long those reforms held up is irrelevant to the effort put in, which Russia doesn't even attempt because its government hates liberalism. You've never spoken to anyone more critical or Daesh or of the instability the sudden US pullout will create in Afghanistan. And you've ignored my central argument. Dubai/Chechnya? It's pretty clear why you're deflecting. Just be upfront that your stance is pro-Putin and your bigotry anti-Muslim and save everyone the time.
      - thriftwy 4y ago
        Ok, let's take a look at the examples. Lebanon - a country torn apart by religious conflicts which could not even solve the physical security problem, as well as recognize the existence of its most important neighbour. Had plenty of run time mostly wasted. Worse than Chechnya. Tunisia. Had a mild democratization which did not backfire to this point. Looks OK. Probably better outcome than Chechnya. Egypt. Had a pointless coup which removed existing corrupt autocratic government and installed a new corrupt autocratic government, with a spark of terrorism in between. Large country which is punching under its weight. Worse outcome than Chechnya. Iraq. I'm not really sure what to say. Let's pretend you didn't suggest it. Iran. Had a lot of time to normalize relations with the West and failed to do so. In some respects a worse theocracy than Chechnya. Unlike Chechnya, which enjoys freedom of movement within Russia, you have nowhere to hide from the deeply islamist regime of Iran short of emigration. The largest outcast state (at least before Feb 24, 2022). Worse than Chechnya. So let's see, it looks that from your list, Chechnya gets silver medal. I think that's quite good. You think that's not enough. Do you agree on the analysis? "Russia is ultimately in charge of Chechnya" sounds like you expect imperialism to not have any alternatives. So you are saying that Russia can override whatever pre-existing culture there is and "install" liberal democracy? Did it work for you in Iraq? I'm not even sure what's your central argument. Speaking of which, let's return to the original form: "treatment of the predominantly Muslim Chechnians by Russia". I think that being the virtual #2 of our successful Muslim states list an OK-ish "treatment". But it works a different way for you: > pro-Putin We don't like Putin -> We don't like Russia -> Let's say something mean about it. This is something I would expect from YouTube comments section, but on HN it's pure disappointment.

thriftwy 4y ago

Russia has got a stable Chechen political regime that sort-of works. Jataman606 did not really refute it, instead pivoting into biased history diving. "No civil society left, horrendous human rights violations" is what there were before the Second Chechen war - there was an alpha version of ISIS there, with slave markets and kidnappings for ransom. Was it worth it fighting ISIS? Absolutely. Was it worth it fighting Ichkeria? Absolutely-ish. I don't really like Kadyrov, but we are talking about a Muslim region and not yours and mine personal preferences. You seem to assume that any Muslim region would want, and implement, a liberal democratic power structure. Well, tough luck finding that between Iraq and Afghanistan. Or in Russia for that matter. I just don't feel that it's an atrocity. The fate of Afghanistan is an atrocity. Chechnya, not so much, it's just people living up to their own political preferences and capabilities.

Sporktacular 4y ago
And Russia levelled it. They could have chosen to develop it, establish courts and other institutions, try war criminals. But their intentions were laid bare when they backed a dictator with many of the same human rights problems. That's why Jataman606 called your argument disingenuous, he's right and you haven't refuted that. "Chechnya is just people living up to their own political preferences and capabilities." First, Russia is in charge, but somehow it's on Chechens and Muslims for failing to turn their country around and implement liberal reforms. How does that work? Why are you so keen to fight off criticism of Russia and its obvious, self-evident record of political wasteland wherever it treads? And don't whatabout America/China/X this time. Second, your arguments drip with the bigotry of low expectations - seeing Chechens and Muslims as people essentially capable of only primitive political organisation. You just ignore every tortured journalist, every silenced student or professor so you can reduce the lack of political development to something essential to the people themselves. Every large group contains people wanting peace, freedom, justice etc. And I don't make any assumptions about what 'all Muslims' or 'all Chechens' want, my argument doesn't need to. I can ask 100 of them and accept as many answers, but your argument can't do that. And you confuse what they want with what they have while glossing over the many things that can go wrong when trying to turn the first into the second. But sure, let's blame their genes/culture/whatever, just not Mother Russia. Just in case you're confused about all the down votes.
- thriftwy 4y ago
  I think that's a "no true scotsman" fallacy. You blame Russia for not doing things that also have not been done anywhere in the world in the same time frame. And then you blame Russia for doing things that have also been done elsewhere on a grand scale. Where are all of those Muslim countries which were turned around by courts and institutions ex machina? Even Dubai struggles with essentially the same problems as modern Chechnya. I'm not wondering about the down votes from the people who can't take blame for ISIS and Afghanistan along other things. It's a bad but unsurprising thing that you are not smarter than that.
  - Sporktacular 4y ago
    Liberal reforms have been implemented by central governments al over the world. England -> Hong Kong, EU -> Poland, US -> Mississippi. That's just more whataboutism. Where other countries fail to do that, I'll fault them just as strongly too. Not that it's relevant, since the Russian government isn't Muslim but Lebanon, Tunisia, Egypt, Iraq, Iran have all had governments that at some point implemented liberal reforms using state institutions. And they obviously imposed that on their provinces, just as Russia could - since Russia is ultimately in charge of Chechnya, not its 'Muslim' vassalage. How long those reforms held up is irrelevant to the effort put in, which Russia doesn't even attempt because its government hates liberalism. You've never spoken to anyone more critical or Daesh or of the instability the sudden US pullout will create in Afghanistan. And you've ignored my central argument. Dubai/Chechnya? It's pretty clear why you're deflecting. Just be upfront that your stance is pro-Putin and your bigotry anti-Muslim and save everyone the time.
    - thriftwy 4y ago
      Ok, let's take a look at the examples. Lebanon - a country torn apart by religious conflicts which could not even solve the physical security problem, as well as recognize the existence of its most important neighbour. Had plenty of run time mostly wasted. Worse than Chechnya. Tunisia. Had a mild democratization which did not backfire to this point. Looks OK. Probably better outcome than Chechnya. Egypt. Had a pointless coup which removed existing corrupt autocratic government and installed a new corrupt autocratic government, with a spark of terrorism in between. Large country which is punching under its weight. Worse outcome than Chechnya. Iraq. I'm not really sure what to say. Let's pretend you didn't suggest it. Iran. Had a lot of time to normalize relations with the West and failed to do so. In some respects a worse theocracy than Chechnya. Unlike Chechnya, which enjoys freedom of movement within Russia, you have nowhere to hide from the deeply islamist regime of Iran short of emigration. The largest outcast state (at least before Feb 24, 2022). Worse than Chechnya. So let's see, it looks that from your list, Chechnya gets silver medal. I think that's quite good. You think that's not enough. Do you agree on the analysis? "Russia is ultimately in charge of Chechnya" sounds like you expect imperialism to not have any alternatives. So you are saying that Russia can override whatever pre-existing culture there is and "install" liberal democracy? Did it work for you in Iraq? I'm not even sure what's your central argument. Speaking of which, let's return to the original form: "treatment of the predominantly Muslim Chechnians by Russia". I think that being the virtual #2 of our successful Muslim states list an OK-ish "treatment". But it works a different way for you: > pro-Putin We don't like Putin -> We don't like Russia -> Let's say something mean about it. This is something I would expect from YouTube comments section, but on HN it's pure disappointment.