6 ms·

To somewhat overstate this paper, it shows chimpanzees have their own language and communicate vocally using words

artifact_44 4y ago
Do you know of any projects using automated transcription and machine learning to analyze hominid speech? I ask because I remember reading about google translate effectively learning how to translate languages purely through machine learning and a large corpus of transcribed speech.
- 77pt77 4y ago
  Sure. Do you have a large corpus of chimp to human? And it's not like both of these sides don't have an almost endless variety of languages...
  - hackinthebochs 4y ago
    What we need is a large corpus of vocal recordings along with contextual video recording. Then train a model to associate vocalizations with states of the video by predicting subsequent video frames. By throwing enough compute at the problem we could probably come to understand any animal language with such a technique.
    - onlyrealcuzzo 4y ago
      What if chimps mainly gossip? How's that going to show up in the videos?
      - hackinthebochs 4y ago
        I expect there's a hierarchy in language acquisition, where describing interactions with the world come before more abstract talk such as gossip. But once this first-order descriptive talk is understood, this can be leveraged to capture the more abstract talk.
    - mannykannot 4y ago
      Looking at correlations between vocalizations and behavior is one thing primate researchers have been doing for decades. It seems implausible for there to be a large skill set that has so far escaped their notice. Whenever one group of humans has met another, it has rapidly become apparent to both parties that the other has a language, no matter how long the ancestors of the two groups have been isolated from one another. Given how long humans and chimpanzees have been coexisting, if they had comparably effective language skills, it is implausible that either party has not recognized it in the other.
      - circlefavshape 4y ago
        I don't think it's implausible. I think it's more implausible that human language is unique
        mannykannot 4y ago
        The view I set out here is neither predicated on nor entails the position that human language is unique. In fact, I happen to believe that there have been several species on Earth with human-like language, it's just that the others are now extinct. I also think it far more likely than not that there is language-using life elsewhere in the universe.
      - hackinthebochs 4y ago
        I think its been conclusively demonstrated that deep learning can discover correlations that go unnoticed by humans. An example that immediately comes to mind is AI detecting race from X-rays. There are many others. There's also many other factors that influence our ability to ascribe language skills to other groups of humans, from complexity of vocalizations to similar ways to interact with the environment and with other group members. We recognize ourselves in fellow humans, which makes it easy to ascribe similar capacities. The question is how easily can we recognize language in a species where we do not immediately recognize ourselves? The more foreign the behavior and the patterns of communication, the harder it gets. AI has the ability to elide over those difficulties.
    - circlefavshape 4y ago
      Hmm. Do you think you could do the same with human languages?
      - hackinthebochs 4y ago
        I think so. It's similar to how an adult can learn a new language by way of immersion. Correlations and gesturing go a long way.
Finnucane 4y ago
It seems a little more than that even. I mean, I admit I couldn't quite follow all of it, but it seems to be suggesting that chimps can to a degree create reorderings of their 'words' to make new meanings, in a sort of proto-syntax. After all, if human language is expressive because our abilities to use syntax and grammar to make complex meaning. Those things had to be built on something that came before.
- winnit 4y ago
  It's interesting because I've heard that one of the benefits Sanskrit poets had in their ability to introduce complex structural patterns in their poetry, is that the meaning of sentences is largely independent of their word-order - meaning the lines can be reordered to freely introduce rhyming schemes etc. Yet the language has many grammatical elements; gendered word endings and so on.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - vkazanov 4y ago
    This kind of relaxed word order is also typical for modern Baltic and Slavic languages. Words themselves have enough information encoded in word prefixes/suffixes/endings so that it's possible to decode even a randomly mixed up sentence. It will feel awkward, or stylistically wrong, but nevertheless understandable. This might help with poetry but comes at a price: it is superhard to internalise all the numerous word forms. I can't image learning Polish, Lithuanian or Russian being only exposed to English previously!
    - dragandj 4y ago
      It is not superhard. It’s not even hard. Every native speaker learned it easily ;)
    - kazinator 4y ago
      > It will feel awkward, or stylistically wrong. No it won't, because it's understood to be poetic. In English, it's a awkward if an adjective is put after a noun right? But you don't bat an eyelash if it's in a poem. "High upon the chimney stack, there I saw perched three crows black." (Don't search for that, I just made it up.) Moreover, in languages with case, reordering doesn't cause any ambiguities or confusion. You know which word is the subject and which the object in any permutation. (Not necessarily for all words, but most.) The speakers already enjoy considerable reordering freedom in everyday sentences already (non-poetic) where it plays roles in emphasis and such.

Do you know of any projects using automated transcription and machine learning to analyze hominid speech? I ask because I remember reading about google translate effectively learning how to translate languages purely through machine learning and a large corpus of transcribed speech.

77pt77 4y ago
Sure. Do you have a large corpus of chimp to human? And it's not like both of these sides don't have an almost endless variety of languages...
- hackinthebochs 4y ago
  What we need is a large corpus of vocal recordings along with contextual video recording. Then train a model to associate vocalizations with states of the video by predicting subsequent video frames. By throwing enough compute at the problem we could probably come to understand any animal language with such a technique.
  - onlyrealcuzzo 4y ago
    What if chimps mainly gossip? How's that going to show up in the videos?
    - hackinthebochs 4y ago
      I expect there's a hierarchy in language acquisition, where describing interactions with the world come before more abstract talk such as gossip. But once this first-order descriptive talk is understood, this can be leveraged to capture the more abstract talk.
  - mannykannot 4y ago
    Looking at correlations between vocalizations and behavior is one thing primate researchers have been doing for decades. It seems implausible for there to be a large skill set that has so far escaped their notice. Whenever one group of humans has met another, it has rapidly become apparent to both parties that the other has a language, no matter how long the ancestors of the two groups have been isolated from one another. Given how long humans and chimpanzees have been coexisting, if they had comparably effective language skills, it is implausible that either party has not recognized it in the other.
    - circlefavshape 4y ago
      I don't think it's implausible. I think it's more implausible that human language is unique
      - mannykannot 4y ago
        The view I set out here is neither predicated on nor entails the position that human language is unique. In fact, I happen to believe that there have been several species on Earth with human-like language, it's just that the others are now extinct. I also think it far more likely than not that there is language-using life elsewhere in the universe.
    - hackinthebochs 4y ago
      I think its been conclusively demonstrated that deep learning can discover correlations that go unnoticed by humans. An example that immediately comes to mind is AI detecting race from X-rays. There are many others. There's also many other factors that influence our ability to ascribe language skills to other groups of humans, from complexity of vocalizations to similar ways to interact with the environment and with other group members. We recognize ourselves in fellow humans, which makes it easy to ascribe similar capacities. The question is how easily can we recognize language in a species where we do not immediately recognize ourselves? The more foreign the behavior and the patterns of communication, the harder it gets. AI has the ability to elide over those difficulties.
  - circlefavshape 4y ago
    Hmm. Do you think you could do the same with human languages?
    - hackinthebochs 4y ago
      I think so. It's similar to how an adult can learn a new language by way of immersion. Correlations and gesturing go a long way.

Finnucane 4y ago

It seems a little more than that even. I mean, I admit I couldn't quite follow all of it, but it seems to be suggesting that chimps can to a degree create reorderings of their 'words' to make new meanings, in a sort of proto-syntax. After all, if human language is expressive because our abilities to use syntax and grammar to make complex meaning. Those things had to be built on something that came before.

winnit 4y ago
It's interesting because I've heard that one of the benefits Sanskrit poets had in their ability to introduce complex structural patterns in their poetry, is that the meaning of sentences is largely independent of their word-order - meaning the lines can be reordered to freely introduce rhyming schemes etc. Yet the language has many grammatical elements; gendered word endings and so on.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- vkazanov 4y ago
  This kind of relaxed word order is also typical for modern Baltic and Slavic languages. Words themselves have enough information encoded in word prefixes/suffixes/endings so that it's possible to decode even a randomly mixed up sentence. It will feel awkward, or stylistically wrong, but nevertheless understandable. This might help with poetry but comes at a price: it is superhard to internalise all the numerous word forms. I can't image learning Polish, Lithuanian or Russian being only exposed to English previously!
  - dragandj 4y ago
    It is not superhard. It’s not even hard. Every native speaker learned it easily ;)
  - kazinator 4y ago
    > It will feel awkward, or stylistically wrong. No it won't, because it's understood to be poetic. In English, it's a awkward if an adjective is put after a noun right? But you don't bat an eyelash if it's in a poem. "High upon the chimney stack, there I saw perched three crows black." (Don't search for that, I just made it up.) Moreover, in languages with case, reordering doesn't cause any ambiguities or confusion. You know which word is the subject and which the object in any permutation. (Not necessarily for all words, but most.) The speakers already enjoy considerable reordering freedom in everyday sentences already (non-poetic) where it plays roles in emphasis and such.