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For me, simple is in the amount of concepts. For example, I consider most multi paradigm languages complex because in them functions, variables, objects, contr

For me, simple is in the amount of concepts. For example, I consider most multi paradigm languages complex because in them functions, variables, objects, control flow, etc. are fundamentally different concepts. But something like LISP, smalltalk or Haskell are simple in my eyes, due to almost everything being the same concept on a fundamental level and the other stuff being built on top of that concept.

pornel 4y ago
The problem is when simple vs complex is used as a value judgement, implying that simpler is better. It's not that simple. Conway's game of life has an incredibly simple definition, and is Turing Complete. The Brainfuck language has a minimal number of language concepts and barely any syntax. And yet, programming in these languages is very hard. Humans need a certain level of language complexity to be able to express themselves. When you simplify things it's not always clear if you're removing superfluous complexity, or removing tools needed to deal with inherent complexity of the problems you need to tackle. I don't think there's even any single objectively appropriate level of complexity, because it depends on the complexity of the problem the language tackles. By analogy to human languages: scientific language has its own jargon (sometimes overused!), but it needs an extended vocabulary to precisely describe the things and problems it works with. Without the added complexity it'd be unproductive due to being verbose and sometimes ambiguous, like the amusing example of Up Goer Five: https://xkcd.com/1133 https://xkcd.com/1133
- Akronymus 4y ago
  As I am not good with words, I am just gonna take this: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31492953 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31492953 Specifically what I wanted to express, is that, for me, the turtles all the way down is what I understand as simplicity. And yeah, simplicity alone can't be used as a value judgement.

pornel 4y ago

The problem is when simple vs complex is used as a value judgement, implying that simpler is better. It's not that simple. Conway's game of life has an incredibly simple definition, and is Turing Complete. The Brainfuck language has a minimal number of language concepts and barely any syntax. And yet, programming in these languages is very hard. Humans need a certain level of language complexity to be able to express themselves. When you simplify things it's not always clear if you're removing superfluous complexity, or removing tools needed to deal with inherent complexity of the problems you need to tackle. I don't think there's even any single objectively appropriate level of complexity, because it depends on the complexity of the problem the language tackles. By analogy to human languages: scientific language has its own jargon (sometimes overused!), but it needs an extended vocabulary to precisely describe the things and problems it works with. Without the added complexity it'd be unproductive due to being verbose and sometimes ambiguous, like the amusing example of Up Goer Five: https://xkcd.com/1133 https://xkcd.com/1133

Akronymus 4y ago
As I am not good with words, I am just gonna take this: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31492953 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31492953 Specifically what I wanted to express, is that, for me, the turtles all the way down is what I understand as simplicity. And yeah, simplicity alone can't be used as a value judgement.