2 ms·

I wouldn't want any 18-year old ricer who thinks that that one update he downloaded from the internet will give him an extra 5 hp but in reality makes the brake

by roel_v 15y ago

I wouldn't want any 18-year old ricer who thinks that that one update he downloaded from the internet will give him an extra 5 hp but in reality makes the brakes lock up under certain circumstances to be able to upload his own firmware with nothing more than a usb cable. Having 'read-only' access to source code - maybe, although I'm not sure it would actually make a difference. But anyone being able to upload anything to something that controls 1500 kg of steel at lethal speeds in the vicinity of others, and that the vast majority of people are simply incapable of of understanding, no thanks. This is one situation where I'd rather give up my 'freedom' (for certain contrived definitions thereof) for a modicum of 'safety' (queue the 'deserves neither' quotes).

Maxious 15y ago
Ricers have been replacing/modifying software for years. eg. http://www.autotechengineering.com.au/ECU%20Tuning/ECU%20Tuning.htm http://www.autotechengineering.com.au/ECU%20Tuning/ECU%20Tun... http://www.vi-pec.com/index.html http://www.vi-pec.com/index.html
- roel_v 15y ago
  Of course, but all of that is within regulated limits. Only tested and approved components can be imported, and if you do a grey import of an unlicensed part and the police catch you with it, they impound the car (some regions have different regimes/exact measures I guess, that's not my point). So modifications are already controlled, it's not that everybody can just machine their own parts and put it on the road, without having it tested/centrally regulated. While if anybody could just modify the firmware in their car, there would be no way to check if that version is safe. The only option would be to allow only (a) certain, manufacturer-approved version(s), which is the exact point I was making. And by making it difficult to upload custom firmware, we (as in, regular citizens who have no interest whatsoever in changing the software in our cars, but who are put in jeopardy by morons who think they are capable of making something better but really can't) can protect ourselves (to a certain degree) against the hackery of said morons.
  - sokoloff 15y ago
    Your position does not match reality, at least in the USA. There is an enormous amount of untested modification of engine ECU firmware going on in the real world over here, and I'm only peripherally involved in that "scene". (My interests are 60s Mustangs, but that means I see a little bit of the import enthusiast world as well.)
    - roel_v 15y ago
      Yes, engine ECU modifications aren't controlled, but other parts, that have direct safety or environmental implications, are (for example exhaust pipes and the way that a chassis can be repaired). And modifications to the firmware of other controllers than the engine ECU can have safety implications. Also yes there is much less regulation in the US, I was mostly talking about the EU market (I think for example that the chassis reparation I mentioned isn't regulated in the US?)
      - sokoloff 15y ago
        Most vehicle repair codes (inspection requirements, etc) are state's rights, though with the advent of OBD-2, many emissions inspections programs have fallen into line. "Plug in the scanner; if it reports 'ready' and no MIL codes, it passes." I won't even bother to enumerate the number of ways that can be gamed. There is a federal emissions certification program, but again, that's only enforced via state inspections, which are a source of income for the independent garages (meaning that there's incentive to interpret the rules loosely to protect the revenue stream). If you need a car to pass, you can find a station that will pass you based on a recent color photograph and a small amount of cash. In terms of chassis repair or mods, it's pretty much a free-for-all. Lifted trucks are regulated in some states, but most other modifications are owner and mechanic discretion. I'm completely changing the geometry of my '66 convertible's front suspension, converting to disk brakes all around and changing to a dual-circuit master cylinder. The number of other people who will be required to check my work prior to it being to legal to drive on the public highways: zero. (And IMO, that's as it should be, but I have a pretty strong libertarian streak.) It will have to pass the state safety inspection, but unless I have a light out, there's no realistic chance that the car will fail the safety inspection and they sure won't notice that the suspension and brakes have been completely re-engineered.

by roel_v 15y ago

Maxious 15y ago

Ricers have been replacing/modifying software for years. eg. http://www.autotechengineering.com.au/ECU%20Tuning/ECU%20Tuning.htm http://www.autotechengineering.com.au/ECU%20Tuning/ECU%20Tun... http://www.vi-pec.com/index.html http://www.vi-pec.com/index.html

roel_v 15y ago
Of course, but all of that is within regulated limits. Only tested and approved components can be imported, and if you do a grey import of an unlicensed part and the police catch you with it, they impound the car (some regions have different regimes/exact measures I guess, that's not my point). So modifications are already controlled, it's not that everybody can just machine their own parts and put it on the road, without having it tested/centrally regulated. While if anybody could just modify the firmware in their car, there would be no way to check if that version is safe. The only option would be to allow only (a) certain, manufacturer-approved version(s), which is the exact point I was making. And by making it difficult to upload custom firmware, we (as in, regular citizens who have no interest whatsoever in changing the software in our cars, but who are put in jeopardy by morons who think they are capable of making something better but really can't) can protect ourselves (to a certain degree) against the hackery of said morons.
- sokoloff 15y ago
  Your position does not match reality, at least in the USA. There is an enormous amount of untested modification of engine ECU firmware going on in the real world over here, and I'm only peripherally involved in that "scene". (My interests are 60s Mustangs, but that means I see a little bit of the import enthusiast world as well.)
  - roel_v 15y ago
    Yes, engine ECU modifications aren't controlled, but other parts, that have direct safety or environmental implications, are (for example exhaust pipes and the way that a chassis can be repaired). And modifications to the firmware of other controllers than the engine ECU can have safety implications. Also yes there is much less regulation in the US, I was mostly talking about the EU market (I think for example that the chassis reparation I mentioned isn't regulated in the US?)
    - sokoloff 15y ago
      Most vehicle repair codes (inspection requirements, etc) are state's rights, though with the advent of OBD-2, many emissions inspections programs have fallen into line. "Plug in the scanner; if it reports 'ready' and no MIL codes, it passes." I won't even bother to enumerate the number of ways that can be gamed. There is a federal emissions certification program, but again, that's only enforced via state inspections, which are a source of income for the independent garages (meaning that there's incentive to interpret the rules loosely to protect the revenue stream). If you need a car to pass, you can find a station that will pass you based on a recent color photograph and a small amount of cash. In terms of chassis repair or mods, it's pretty much a free-for-all. Lifted trucks are regulated in some states, but most other modifications are owner and mechanic discretion. I'm completely changing the geometry of my '66 convertible's front suspension, converting to disk brakes all around and changing to a dual-circuit master cylinder. The number of other people who will be required to check my work prior to it being to legal to drive on the public highways: zero. (And IMO, that's as it should be, but I have a pretty strong libertarian streak.) It will have to pass the state safety inspection, but unless I have a light out, there's no realistic chance that the car will fail the safety inspection and they sure won't notice that the suspension and brakes have been completely re-engineered.